Most balanced Guilty Gear game?

[Xeno]

Is the Slayer "has no hitbox" you refer to have to do with dash invincibility? (I've only heard about it)

[Mechanica]

Is the Slayer "has no hitbox" you refer to have to do with dash invincibility? (I've only heard about it)

Backdash cancel mappa was maximum ownage in reload. I don't even wanna know how many full invincibility frames that had.

[Josh Ballard]

I still think Slash was a more balanced and better overall game than AC.

Thing with Slash was that while the bottom tier was worse than in AC, the mid tier was better. In particular, I'm thinking of Axl who is more or less mid in both games - he got waaaaaaay better tournament results in Slash as I recall.

Or look at SBO finals for AC - Eddie/Testament/Slayer winning, Slayer/Jam/Potemkin in 2nd. I would love to see concrete evidence that I'm wrong, but AC just seems more heavily dominated by the top 8 characters or so. When you had Slash at SBO, there was only one Ky in the top 4 IIRC and not much top tier in the finals (just Anji I think).

But even beyond that, Slash had far better move balance. Meaning, the vast majority of your stuff was worth using even at the highest level. AC has more broken moves and more terrible moves, which makes things less interesting IMO.

But then, I'm one of those people who prefers nerfed characters (see also: Real Bout 2, Samsho V Special) so YMMV.

-Josh

[Nives]

Thing with Slash was that while the bottom tier was worse than in AC, the mid tier was better.

i think slash was a lot more balanced with just the exception of robo-ky on the bottom tier. everyone else was fine.

[Spirit Juice]

Backdash cancel mappa was maximum ownage in reload. I don't even wanna know how many full invincibility frames that had.

In #R I think it had something like 11-17 frames of invul. I forget how many exactly, probably 11, but it was still really good. In XX it was just absurd, giving you the full amount of invul. frames from the backdash, making it 23 frames or something.

[RedBeard]

i think slash was a lot more balanced with just the exception of robo-ky on the bottom tier. everyone else was fine.

I disagree.

Balance wise: The games are pretty much equal. Almost everyone in Slash is competetive, and literally every character in AC is competetive. Sure, the top tier in AC has some retarded ass shit, but people often understate Ky/Sol's power in regards to the rest of the cast in Slash because they don't SEEM broken in the traditional sense, when in fact they were considerably more powerful than the rest of the cast.

Design wise: Games are pretty much equal. Both of them fail for different reasons. Slash being boring/watered down/made the easiest characters the best so playing anything else is kinda pointless. AC being too much damage per combo, and a few too many stupid options with some characters.

People seem to equate doing too much damage as a game being unbalanced. I don't know why, they have nothing to do with each other. The amount of damage you do has no bearing on balance. The amount of damage you do off of specific options in relation to the rest of the cast is. It just so happens that nearly everybody in AC has pretty good damage/options.

I also don't recall Axl ever really having a good tournament placing record in any Guilty Gear game, ever. Not that he sucks but he seems like a bad tournament character to me(Much like ABA/Chipp/Potemkin(before AC) are bad tournament characters). Just my opinion though.

[EasyModeNub]

In #R I think it had something like 11-17 frames of invul. I forget how many exactly, probably 11, but it was still really good. In XX it was just absurd, giving you the full amount of invul. frames from the backdash, making it 23 frames or something.

Those were the days, when BDC (p)Mappa was almost unstopable. Just as bad though imo, actually WAY WORSE, was back in XX when Eddie could frc the close drill.... seriously... that was bullshit.

XX Learning curve:

Slayer - press buttons>BDC jump>BDC everything else

Eddie - invite hell>summon shadow>invite hell frc>use shadow(optional)

Millia - reset, reset some more, keep reseting, I never said stop reseting

Axl - 5P>2P>6K>2S

:vbang: :vbang:

[Digital Watches]

I also don't recall Axl ever really having a good tournament placing record in any Guilty Gear game, ever. Not that he sucks but he seems like a bad tournament character to me(Much like ABA/Chipp/Potemkin(before AC) are bad tournament characters). Just my opinion though.

I don't really see how. Frankly, I think Axl has a lot of potential, (my opinion might be slightly biased. Just slightly. ) and there aren't really any heavy execution barriers stopping people from getting their shit together with him. I think the only reason Axl doesn't place in tournaments is that he's severely underrepresented.

I will say this right now, balance and tiers have little to do with people who are just plain GOOD at a specific character. You might think the matchup is statistically in your favor, but there are players who can bend those parameters how they want the fight to flow.

Learning combos may seem robotic at times, but when you play, you have to be cagey, that is to say, play with the idea of tricking your opponent, don't just poke because the poke worked last time you were playing the CPU or someone who didn't know much about the character he/she was playing.

People can say games are balanced, but that's only if the level of skill is balanced between players across the board.

Liek OMG, good players win, there are mindgames, and measurements of game balance assume similar skill levels? NO WAI!

I'm pretty much tired of this argument coming up in tier discussions. It's not wrong, it's just that anyone with their head on straight already knows that shit. 'Slike going into an economics discussion with "Hey guys, check it out! Apparently, people will PAY for goods and services. WITH CURRENCY! CRAZY!"

Of course an experienced player is going to beat a weak one most of the time regardless of the matchup. It doesn't really invalidate matchup analysis or even contribute anything to the discussion.

[axel]

Kakyuu and Shuuto both placed 2nd in SBO before.

[RedBeard]

True, but to begin with I wasn't really counting SBO. Mostly because both Kakyuu and Shuuto hardly bagged any wins for their team from what I saw. Kakyuu beat Yukinose, and I can't remember clearly if Shuuto beat anybody? Perhaps Axl is underrepresented, but IMO he's just not a good tournament character, and I think out of the entire cast he's perhaps only above like ABA, Chipp, OS, and Potemkin(Pre-AC) for lack of tournament placement. But again this is only out of the tournaments I've read results for online and obviously doesn't cover everything so meh. Just my opinion, I can't remember seeing Axl win any singles tournies like ever. I saw Mochida(I think that was his name? He played yellow/purple Axl) win a few in Slash, and Kakyuu used to rape at the beginning of XX A-Cho tournies...but other than that, nothing really.

[RTSD]

Guilty Gear 1 for PS1. Eveyone was equally broken with the charge cancel 6H.

[Digital Watches]

True, but to begin with I wasn't really counting SBO. Mostly because both Kakyuu and Shuuto hardly bagged any wins for their team from what I saw. Kakyuu beat Yukinose, and I can't remember clearly if Shuuto beat anybody?

Perhaps Axl is underrepresented, but IMO he's just not a good tournament character, and I think out of the entire cast he's perhaps only above like ABA, Chipp, OS, and Potemkin(Pre-AC) for lack of tournament placement. But again this is only out of the tournaments I've read results for online and obviously doesn't cover everything so meh. Just my opinion, I can't remember seeing Axl win any singles tournies like ever. I saw Mochida(I think that was his name? He played yellow/purple Axl) win a few in Slash, and Kakyuu used to rape at the beginning of XX A-Cho tournies...but other than that, nothing really.

I dunno, man. The fact that this has remained consistent since XX really does make it seem like the problem is underrepresentation, not anything inherent. Maybe if you were to elaborate as to why it could be something else.

[RedBeard]

I don't really see how. Frankly, I think Axl has a lot of potential, (my opinion might be slightly biased. Just slightly. ) and there aren't really any heavy execution barriers stopping people from getting their shit together with him. I think the only reason Axl doesn't place in tournaments is that he's severely underrepresented.

As far as this goes, I agree that he actually is underrepresented.

As far as why I think he's a bad tournament character...He has a few bad matchups against faster characters/Slayer. He's pretty awful defensively, takes tons of damage, big fat hitbox, and once anyone in the game is rushing him down it's somewhat hard for him to get out of it and get proper spacing again. It's also no good that a lot of his mixups become really obvious when you have more experience against him, though he did gain good options in AC. And while he can be kind of annoying for higher tier characters, he's not annoying enough to actually have an advantage on them. Doesn't help that characters he gets owned by(Jam, Slayer) are overly played.

Though what you said about this being a problem from XX and thus likely being more related to under rep rings true as well. Then again, a lot of Axl's core mechanics have stayed the same game to game.

But again, that's just how I see it. Not saying that's how it is.

[Digital Watches]

Well, for one thing, though Jam being so well represented I could see being a factor, I think that to say he has a bad matchup with Slayer is kind of making mountains out of molehills. Still, the issues you list are good points. I just don't agree that they are enough alone to really make the general statement that "Axl is not a strong tournament character" hold water, and I'm more inclined to believe that underrepresentation is the problem.

[Keo-bas]

My words may not be valid since i never been to tournaments or experience top competitive play. But since i deal with my friends abusing what ever they can and reading stuff here. The only reason that makes the top tiers really absurd is their ability to fight effectively with out relying on the tension gauge and only needs 40% of the game schematics unlike the low tiers or mid tiers who rely heavily on the knowing and implementing game schematics.\

[Jet Set Dizzy]

I see no Eddie clone. I think we're in the clear.

[4r5]

Damn dude, that was like months ago. Anyways, he (from the one vid we have of him) looks more like a fire and forget guy, like Faust. At worst, an annoying zoner like that shrine girl from Arcana Heart. You're not an Eddie clone till your gameplan revolves around setting up and landing unblockables, repeatedly. Wait a minute, this entire thread was months ago. What were we talking about again?

[Dawnbringer]

True, but to begin with I wasn't really counting SBO. Mostly because both Kakyuu and Shuuto hardly bagged any wins for their team from what I saw. Kakyuu beat Yukinose, and I can't remember clearly if Shuuto beat anybody?

Perhaps Axl is underrepresented, but IMO he's just not a good tournament character, and I think out of the entire cast he's perhaps only above like ABA, Chipp, OS, and Potemkin(Pre-AC) for lack of tournament placement. But again this is only out of the tournaments I've read results for online and obviously doesn't cover everything so meh. Just my opinion, I can't remember seeing Axl win any singles tournies like ever. I saw Mochida(I think that was his name? He played yellow/purple Axl) win a few in Slash, and Kakyuu used to rape at the beginning of XX A-Cho tournies...but other than that, nothing really.

In Slash,Shuuto beat J.T(Anji)/Ogawa(Eddie) to advance.

He then beat Tsubu(ABA)/MINT(Testament) in order to advance into the semis.Though Axl is underrepresented,Axl definitely isn't a bad tournament character.And those are some pretty big wins for Shuuto.He did have a (relatively) close match against KA2's rapefest 2006.

NINJA EDIT:

I think this thread went from "the most balanced GG" to "the least popular character in SBO tournaments."

[Zeit Kuppler]

I like Fate/Unlimited Code's approach to tiers. Every character is broke tier. Makes for some balance. :] Although I do think GG1 was like that?

[Destin]

Does anyone have the last accepted slash tier list? My area is going back to playing GG generations and I am quite curious.

[shinquickman]

S: So, ky a: In, jo, po b ja, sl, ma, an, ba, te, mi, ax, fa, ch, ve c: Za, ed, br, ab d: Di, ho e: Ro

[Frank The Tank]

Does anyone have the last accepted slash tier list? My area is going back to playing GG generations and I am quite curious.

...why?

Also, don't play Slash HOS, whatever you do.

[4r5]

...why?

10yrs of GG Generations baby!

[Chainsaw Guitar]

Out of plain curiosity, does anyone have the GGX tier list?. All's I know is that Johnny, Millia & Dizzy destroy everyone, and that Testament & Axl are completely helpless against everyone...

[4r5]

I think the bigger question is: Did Potemkin have a FDC infinite in GGX?