[CP] Kokonoe - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[Red Reaper]

I've had it on the wiki since day 2.

My bad. Didn't check her regular page. I was going straight to her "Frame Data" page which didn't have any info...

[True_Tech]

this 22b 3c after black hole is killing me lol, only landed a few times, i wish there was a visual way to time when to do stuff cause i can't really see when kokonoe hits the ground

[Kurushii]

My bad. Didn't check her regular page. I was going straight to her "Frame Data" page which didn't have any info...

I'll copy stuff over to that page soon.

[SoWL]

A question for the Koko players, if I may: what are the super-fireball's weaknesses? Right now, it feels like you can always throw it out as a reversal with no risk at all. If it hits, you get a combo, if they block the initial hit or hit Kokonoe out of it, the fireball will still fall down and you get a combo, and if they block the fireball, Kokonoe gets a free mix-up thanks to its long active frames and lots of fire that obstructs the view. The only downside of it that I can see is that it costs meter, and Koko might want to keep it for other moves (black hole oki, for example).

[Smezel]

A question for the Koko players, if I may: what are the super-fireball's weaknesses? Right now, it feels like you can always throw it out as a reversal with no risk at all. If it hits, you get a combo, if they block the initial hit or hit Kokonoe out of it, the fireball will still fall down and you get a combo, and if they block the fireball, Kokonoe gets a free mix-up thanks to its long active frames and lots of fire that obstructs the view. The only downside of it that I can see is that it costs meter, and Koko might want to keep it for other moves (black hole oki, for example).

You only get frame advantage from fireball super if you have a Graviton out i believe, which you wont have in most cases where you'd think to use it as a reversal. And im pretty sure the fireball disappears if Kokonoe gets hit.

[Loli Bacon]

A question for the Koko players, if I may: what are the super-fireball's weaknesses? Right now, it feels like you can always throw it out as a reversal with no risk at all. If it hits, you get a combo, if they block the initial hit or hit Kokonoe out of it, the fireball will still fall down and you get a combo, and if they block the fireball, Kokonoe gets a free mix-up thanks to its long active frames and lots of fire that obstructs the view. The only downside of it that I can see is that it costs meter, and Koko might want to keep it for other moves (black hole oki, for example).

Some characters can combo her afterward and be completely safe. Bullet's bnb pushes her out of range of the fireball, and even if it doesn't, she can do her projectile invuln throw when it comes back down.

EDIT: Fireball stays out if Kokonoe gets hit.

[Kurushii]

Second CMV for you all to enjoy:

【BBCP】ココノエコンボムービー 「ＰＳＩ－ＭＩＳＳＩＮＧ」

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22234435

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWQi5rWFgM

Edited November 11, 2013 by Kurushii

[Miheko]

figure out your own character specific punish for it. some chars can trade and combo post trade, stuff like that.

[Shiny Missingno]

Second CMV for you all to enjoy:

【BBCP】ココノエコンボムービー 「ＰＳＩ－ＭＩＳＳＩＮＧ」

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22234435

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWQi5rWFgM

Very nice! :3

[Mirasantika]

this 22b 3c after black hole is killing me lol, only landed a few times, i wish there was a visual way to time when to do stuff cause i can't really see when kokonoe hits the ground

Yeah, 3c rarely hit for me, I think I will just stick to 22b 5b 6a 6c>j2c whiff loop since the 5b is mashable lol

Got some question about blackhole combo, what combo should I used if the enemy got hit by 22b first before the blackhole?

So far I used 22b 5b 6a 6b 236b 6a 236c for around 3,7k without the bounce damage

Edited November 12, 2013 by Mirasantika

[Master Of Chaos]

Second CMV for you all to enjoy:

【BBCP】ココノエコンボムービー 「ＰＳＩ－ＭＩＳＳＩＮＧ」

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22234435

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWQi5rWFgM

Kickass job, Kurushii.

Also, do we have any practical ways to combo into Astral? That shit is hella nice to watch.

[Kurushii]

Also, do we have any practical ways to combo into Astral? That shit is hella nice to watch.

Astral is a command grab. If you try to combo into it it'll be a purple throw. You can use one of her setups to hold them in blockstun then try to time your astral to land after blockstun is over. Her astral has a really shitty vertical range so it wont be easy.

[Andarel]

So after playing exclusively her for the last few days, a few random notes:

Like I mentioned earlier, your neutral game isn't that great. 5C and jB are pretty good, jC is good but risky, and j2C is pretty slow (but big). Your main game plan needs to be messing with the opponent.

How, you might ask? Kokonoe is the only character in the game that can forcibly move the opponent at any moment and with significant uptime. Rachel needs to burn precious wind and Tager needs to hit first. So? 9D. 9D is extremely strong - most characters don't like being in the air for extended periods of time, and unless they can hit you the graviton stays. Worse, you can pop it to fling them over or towards you. 8D is similar against characters like Nu, who need to be in specific zones - you can't beat them at neutral in their zone, but you can pull them out of it.

Mu is a problem, though =\ As is Azrael. You can beat a lot of Mu's stuff with 3C but she still maintains pressure very well and has better neutral when one or two steins are out. Them, Litchi, and Tao are the matchups I've had the most trouble with. Haven't played a good Valk yet so that's still in the air, but he seems like he'd have trouble with gravitons messing with wolf mixups.

[Ronove]

I honestly can't understand how people can say that her neutral game isn't that great. Fireball + Graviton is an insanely good tool in neutral phase to make the opponent block and start the offense (think of I-No's notes), her 3C is stupid fast for a poke and is safe, has a godlike 6A antiair and her jA has good hitbox and makes up for easy hitconfirms too. She can do whatever she wants, either approach opponents with fireball+graviton or just fuck up their neutral and easily get in.

Not to mention Fireball super + Graviton in neutral. It's too freaking good.

[NecroTheReaper]

Probably the same reason as to why Rachel has a godlike neutral game. It takes time to set up, and it costs resources (though not as easily burned through as Rachel). You have to set up both the graviton and the fireball before its OP, so there's 2 places, depending on the matchup, that you could be punished for. 22B is sorta like a George that doesn't move, so its mostly a hinderance on their approach to you, but most moves used to punish graviton/fireball probably won't need them charging into you.

[Andarel]

Her moves cover good angles, but they all cover the same angles. Fireball (esp. super) + Graviton is definitely great, it's one of the strongest projectiles in the game, but the problem is that everything, even her neutral, is momentum based and mostly focuses directly in front of her. 3C and 2B are solid foot checks (a la Hazama, whose 3C has the same startup as Kokonoe's - both are great though), 5C has good range but only gets reward on CH, 2C and 6C are balls at neutral, 5B / 6B are balls at neutral unless you're sure they will hit, and her jabs aren't that good unless you're very close (though 2A hits low and 5A hits crouching - in the same vein, neither anti-airs very well). 6A is godlike at deep angles but has pretty limited horizontal range. You crutch really heavily on fireball and graviton, and if you get clipped by anything they're both gone and the opponent can get in for free.

It's definitely weird, though. Against people who can control space without having to move too much (Litchi, Hazama, Mu) her options feel severely limited. But again, it also feels like she can scale with player skill to get around it using gravitons and momentum shifting

Edit: These are mostly observations from playing her. She's definitely good. Really good. Not sure how she compares to the top 3, though as tech evolves we'll see how she matches up against them. Luckily (imho) people are finding more ways to get around the black hole setup because I don't even know what they were thinking when they designed that super.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Andarel

[Loli Bacon]

Her neutral is amazing, except against other zoners. Mu poops on her in terms of neutral, but to force Mu to stop throwing out steins, do 6D > 236D. If she does jump steins and gets CH, you get a combo FULL SCREEN because you can cancel 236D into 22C and will STILL teleport to where you had the graviton.

[Andarel]

4D is hilarious against Nu. Everything is terrible forever (for her) if she tries to zone you from the air like Lambda used to.

[Ronove]

Probably the same reason as to why Rachel has a godlike neutral game. It takes time to set up, and it costs resources (though not as easily burned through as Rachel). You have to set up both the graviton and the fireball before its OP, so there's 2 places, depending on the matchup, that you could be punished for. 22B is sorta like a George that doesn't move, so its mostly a hinderance on their approach to you, but most moves used to punish graviton/fireball probably won't need them charging into you.

Time to set up? Graviton is 16 frames fast. Do that + Fireball from fullscreen and the only character that could pose a real threat would be Tao and maybe zoners (but again, she can do other kind of bullshit against these characters, like graviton + teleport). The fireball stays active for a long time and you can litterally move it around changing the graviton placement, get the opponent blocking and dash/teleport in. Hell the fireball can even hide Kokonoe (not to mention how good her Fireball super is for that kind of trick).

She has the safest way to set up her offense from neutral than any other character in the game. How on earth is that not terribly good is beyond me.

Mind you I like the way she plays (minus the unblockable bullshit and the stupid damage output), but rather than a BB character she feels more like a GG character or even a Marvel character. Lot of freedom to try different kind of approaches and tricks.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Ronove

[Miheko]

so im not really sure why the black hole thread (who it works vs, who needs meter to get out, who can get out meterless) got merged into this one

it's a pretty crucial part of kokonoe oki and it's not on the front page - being on an obscure page in a 20+ page thread makes said info useless and hard to find

i'll go mess around with it more today and see which go over character escape options. edit: if anyone wants to assist, test in corner with multiple set ups. 6b, 5c 236b 5c, and 5c 236b 5c 22c

post in question

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?17437-CP-Kokonoe-Gameplay-Discussion-%28Discuss-Videos-Combos-Questions-etc-%29/page10&p=1568468&viewfull=1#post1568468

Edited November 12, 2013 by Miheko

[True_Tech]

wow i had no idea that happened, yeah not a good look cause it's not like i was gonna go back to page 10 to see that

[Kurushii]

Because I was going to make a thread covering all setups and oki. A thread isn't needed for just one, when the info posted could of just been put on the wiki instead. Thread is now up so people can go discuss all of her oki game.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Kurushii

[Kibafool]

Bang's D moves, Makoto's parry and Litchi's Staright Through can all guard point through Kokonoe's Tager Laser. Jin and Hakumen can Yukikaze it and end up behind her. If Hakumen was able to cut a projectile and have a void in front of him, it eats the laser too.

[Andarel]

Tager Laser isn't particularly good at neutral / in general, given that it takes forever and a day to come out. Maybe once in a while you'll get an instant kill off it but that's hardly a good reason to blow 100 meter when she has much better things to spend meter on...

Looks cool though.

[Kurushii]

Some corrects made to the wiki

Summon 32T, but at 24f~ can cancel into various moves

Activation 23T, but at 17f~ can cancel into various moves

Withdraw 32T, but at 24f~ can cancel into various moves

Various moves includes: all normals, specials, and jump. You can OD but it won't count as a cancel overdrive.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Kurushii