[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[natearistata]

The backdash change thing could mean anything. Some could get nerfed, some could get buffed, some could go untouched. It's impossible to know until they either release the data themselves or someone gets their hands on it and releases the info.

[Lucalibur]

lol everyone will have Azrael backdash now!

ALL MATCHES ARE AZRAEL MIRRORS NOW.

I AM READY FOR CP2.

[bakahyl]

I'm gonna ignore the stupid 'Azrael needs nerfs' posts on the last page and move on to more important topics for now. We're going on about nerfed backdashes and everything, but I think they said backdashes would be ADJUSTED, not NERFED? As in, they would be CHANGED, but that doesn't exactly mean they're gonna be NERFED? I could be wrong but I don't think it was outright stated backdashes will be getting some sort of universal nerf.

What can you adjust about backdashes aside from speed, distance and invulnerability time? I doubt that they are actually buffing backdashes, so the more logical assumption is that most of these changes are going to be nerfs

[Lucalibur]

What I mean is that there is no word on universal nerfs, yet everyone seems to be acting that is the case or something. Like nateari..stata...fuck idk said, they could either be buffed or nerfed, and just because a backdash is really good doesn't mean it will get nerfed or vice versa.

[HoudiniJr100]

lol everyone will have Azrael backdash now!

Bang with a teleport dash would be hilarious. XD

[redsilversnake]

You've provided zero justification for why Azrael needs nerfs. Nobody agrees with you. I say that perspective only makes sense when the ideas I've put forward are in place, and you whine about me putting words in your mouth, which is not something I'm doing. I'm just taking your perspective and saying it really only makes sense if you hold those ideas; if you don't hold them, then there is no justification for your opinion.

No, you're making assumptions about my perspective. Admittedly, that is partly my fault for not going into further detail, but you are indeed attributing opinions to me that I haven't expressed.

Again, Azrael is decidedly not top tier, none of his abilities are starkly overpowered when present in the full context of his character design and the game itself. Why should he be nerfed? You have yet to answer this question, so that leaves me only to assume what you think, based on the logic you've used. If you don't want to feel like I'm putting words in your mouth, then justify your opinions a little more clearly.

True, he isn't top tier, nor is he overpowered. However, I have gone over a couple of the things he has that are too good. I'd be willing to accept him having the frame-advantageous moves and high damage he has if he had least had a slower 5D and a less braindead 2C. Neither of those moves needs to be the way they are now.

Again, the only justification that you've given for your opinion was based on your prior experience playing a weak character, which you have since retracted since said justification was overruled by other information. Explain yourself better.

A) That wasn't even a justification.

B) I did give justifications before.

Again, Azrael's buffs are largely fluff and will not make any serious impact on him as a character. In addition, as mentioned multiple times, the backdash nerf may significantly affect him, and so we don't know really how he will look in this new version (the Growler change may end up being a life saver if his BD got nerfed hard). So again, what is the justification for nerfing him, outside of the simple opinion that something he has is "too good" for some unknown reason?

My problem wasn't even that he got buffs, though; it was that he didn't get nerfed at all. Which might've be fine if the top tiers were getting more significant nerfs and the mid characters got better buffs, but that's not the case.

...All that being said, weren't there changes made to Extend after it was showcased at an event? Who knows, maybe the same will happen here and we're all essentially arguing over the equivalent of a loketest.

[bakahyl]

lol everyone will have Azrael backdash now!

I am imagining zoners (heck, even Mu would be nightmare) with backdashes like Azrael or Tager. The entire neutral of the whole game would be butchered

[NecroTheReaper]

Backdashing sparkbolts all day.

[Errol]

they could buff the characters with bad backdashes. but mostly nerfs, I agree.

They could also make it so mu/nu can't backdash in rapid succession. or remove it from other characters.

the biggest nerfs are probably coming to:

Kokonoe, Taokaka, Azrael?, Valkenhayn, Relius, Noel, Tager?, Arakune?

I'm not sure about Azrael, Arakune, Tager because their backdashes are very clearly special. Same kinda true of murakumo backdash.

possibly buffs to Bang, Bullet, Hazama...

[Airk]

I'm sorry, did you just mention two characters who have regular dashes? From a design perspective, they should both have a much easier time actually getting inside than Azrael. Staying inside is a whole other story.

Operative word in this sentence is "SHOULD" but they don't, so....

How so? My point was that nothing Azrael has is inherently broken, and he works as a character design because of those strengths. The fact that characters like Tsubaki and Makoto FAIL as character designs does nothing to change this.

This is the exact kind of crap that pisses me off; There's NOTHING. NOTHING about the "Designs" of these characters involved here. The fact is that some characters are being given tools to do their jobs and some aren't. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with their "design" - that's just their GOAL.

So do I! We actually agree on this point. I've said so in multiple posts since the one you're quoting. I'm not sure if you jumped to this point without reading those, but you might want to go back and read them if that's the case.

That's nice. This doesn't mean disagreeing with you about other stuff is irrelevant. :P

Sometimes things get changed because they don't fit in with what the designers think is appropriate for the character. That doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with those changes.

It's fine and all to talk about what's "appropriate" but when the results of setting for what's "appropriate" (arbitrary standard) make a character -bad- maybe it's time to think again about what's "appropriate" and make changes based on what matters. Tier lists aren't based on which character's moveset is most 'appropriate'.

*sigh* Neutral jump kills Gustaf. You get a free combo if you jump at the right time. QQ.

It's not like you can neutral jump it on reaction. It's 13 frames of startup for crying out loud. If you start neutral jumping around like an idiot, he'll just dash forward and AA you with one of his 6 AAs. :P This is also the same solution for CS2 Tsubaki shield rush, only that had MORE startup on all versions, and more active frames, so you actually almost COULD jump it on reaction.

[quote

For a character like Tsubaki, who has access to all of the normal mobility options in the game, something like a fast advancing move with a good hitbox that is pretty safe on block most likely IS too good, from a designers' perspective, especially if it's something that made the character significantly better than she is now or was previously.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Airk

[Lucalibur]

I am imagining zoners (heck, even Mu would be nightmare) with backdashes like Azrael or Tager. The entire neutral of the whole game would be butchered

You are now imagining Tager with Azrael's dashes.

@redsilversnake I don't get what is wrong with 5D and 2C? 5D can't really be cancelled from anything other than 5BB(lol) without delay, so it's not as hard to react as the frame data(21F startup) would suggest. Jin's 6A is 19F but nobody bitches about it because you can't follow it up on normal hit, which is not really that different from the case here.

I don't get 2C at all and fail to see how it's braindead. Braindead is something like Rachel's 6A or Wolf Valk's 5B, where they can literally mash the heck out of it when the enemy is in the air and even if it trades they still get a full combo out of it. Azrael gets...2C>6D. Woot, 1K and upper mark. That is sweet and everything but the reward ain't really huge and you use it like you would use any anti-air.

If you don't mean it as an anti-air, then I don't know what you could mean by that. Implying it's too good for mixups maybe lol?

[bakahyl]

they could buff the characters with bad backdashes. but mostly nerfs, I agree.

They could also make it so mu/nu can't backdash in rapid succession. or remove it from other characters.

the biggest nerfs are probably coming to:

Kokonoe, Taokaka, Azrael?, Valkenhayn, Relius, Noel, Tager?, Arakune?

I'm not sure about Azrael, Arakune, Tager because their backdashes are very clearly special. Same kinda true of murakumo backdash.

possibly buffs to Bang, Bullet, Hazama...

They also could buff Hakumen's backdash, last time (in CSE though) i checked it had no invulnerability at all

And IIRC litchi had an alternative unique backdash as well

[Sophisticat]

We have some very angry people in this thread.

Chill out, yo.

[natearistata]

Shit, Tager with Azrael's backdash would suck.

Oh damn I just backdashed out of my own effective neutral range, fml.

[mAc Chaos]

They also could buff Hakumen's backdash, last time (in CSE though) i checked it had no invulnerability at all

And IIRC litchi had an alternative unique backdash as well

It has never had invulnerability.

[Balmung92]

Slightly off topic but does anyone know if there will be a stream for the Expo tomorrow?

[Yazumatto]

How so? My point was that nothing Azrael has is inherently broken, and he works as a character design because of those strengths. The fact that characters like Tsubaki and Makoto FAIL as character designs does nothing to change this. It makes more sense to be mad about them than to be mad about Azrael.

Now what does that mean? Just because ArcSys refuses time and again to actually find a mid-point for Makoto's moveset doesn't mean she's a failed design. She started off high/top before being the worst character in the game for what is going to be the third game in a row (Makoto tier is the new Tager tier now). There's never been a mid-point, just extremes. It's just pure incompetence at this point so I do kind of agree with Airk.

That being said, y'all can leave Azrael alone. He's the only character left that I genuinely find interesting to play. Even with the buffs, he still has the same problems in his gameplay. The only neutral game improvement I can see is the Growler buff. When Mori inevitably kills off Makoto in CP2 (citing lack of character interest in the arcades as his transparent excuse) as a martyr for his waifu Noel's character development, I'm going to need Azrael's big broad shoulders to cry on.

[redsilversnake]

Operative word in this sentence is "SHOULD" but they don't, so....

TB's actually right; Azrael does have to make bigger commitments than most characters in his approach. The problem isn't that he can get in easily, but that it's easier for him to stay in.

It's not like you can neutral jump it on reaction. It's 13 frames of startup for crying out loud. If you start neutral jumping around like an idiot, he'll just dash forward and AA you with one of his 6 AAs. :P This is also the same solution for CS2 Tsubaki shield rush, only that had MORE startup on all versions, and more active frames, so you actually almost COULD jump it on reaction.

If I'm correctly remembering the range most Azrael players use Gustaf at, dash>AA isn't actually a wise move against a neutral jump. Hell, it's probably almost as punishable as a whiffed Gustaf.

Oh come on, you are talking about a character that has basically NEVER actually been bad. Clearly it's HARD to screw him severely. Only it's not.

Jin's never been bad, true, but it is indeed easy to screw up on a character like him (in either direction, at that). But that's really part of a more general discussion on ASW not exactly being that good with character balance to begin with, which is best saved for when this version actually comes out.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

redsilversnake: Again, I did not necessarily attribute those opinions to you. I said your perspective only makes sense if you held those opinions. The fact that this happened because you did not fully explain yourself is not partially your fault, it is 100% your fault.

For 5D: I've already explained why he has this move, and the fact that it actually doesn't give all that great a reward most of the time (you have to either have meter or corner to capitalize off of 5D, and that's only if they've already had upper weakness applied). Further, it's still a 21 frame overhead, which while fast by BB standards, is still slow as snot, plus you will learn to expect it a little more once you have upper weakness applied. It's -4 on block, -7 if IBed, which means most characters can 2A punish it if they're within range, and if it's spaced to be outside of that range, there are times where he won't get as great a followup due to being out of range of 5B. I really don't see this as being too good by itself. Having this plus really good normals is pretty good, but again, Azrael is not exactly in a good position to continue pressure at times because of the stubby range of his oh-so-great-on-block normals. Combined with how tough it can be for him to get close, and altogether I don't see why this is "too good". If Ragna or Jin had this, then yeah, nerf plz. But as I've mentioned multiple times, within the context of the character, it seems fine.

I don't get why 2C is "too good", either. As an anti-air? Seems to be situational in that aspect, and even then the reward is pretty lousy unless you already have upper weakness applied, in which case you probably shouldn't be jumping at Azrael. It's admittedly pretty safe if blocked, but otherwise I don't see where you're coming from. Putting a good anti-air on a character who you would typically try to stay away from does not seem like something "too good".

Airk: QQ. Sorry your character sucks, stop taking it out on characters who aren't overpowered. And if you really think the designers have no idea what they're doing, then don't play the game. Simple. This is what I did when I got tired of Soul Calibur, there is no reason to waste time playing a game if you don't like it.

[NecroTheReaper]

I'll admit to one thing about the makoto/tsubaki/failtiercharacters, and that is the fact that it seems like Ark is tryin to completely ruin the character. Do the people workin on this game even look at competetive gameplay and think "this character that slaps people with aloe vera for blockstrings is too op, this 4 frame gap between every attack is too tight". Just do what taking our money says you'll do when it comes to balance Dx.

This way when I lose to low tier characters I wont feel embarrassed

[redsilversnake]

@redsilversnake I don't get what is wrong with 5D and 2C? 5D can't really be cancelled from anything other than 5BB(lol) without delay, so it's not as hard to react as the frame data(21F startup) would suggest. Jin's 6A is 19F but nobody bitches about it because you can't follow it up on normal hit, which is not really that different from the case here.

Reactable overheads are a myth, though. The human brain is terrible at processing things that occur in less than a second, especially with other things to factor in, let alone allowing you to actually do anything fast enough in that timeframe.

I don't get 2C at all and fail to see how it's braindead. Braindead is something like Rachel's 6A or Wolf Valk's 5B, where they can literally mash the heck out of it when the enemy is in the air and even if it trades they still get a full combo out of it. Azrael gets...2C>6D. Woot, 1K and upper mark. That is sweet and everything but the reward ain't really huge and you use it like you would use any anti-air.

If you don't mean it as an anti-air, then I don't know what you could mean by that. Implying it's too good for mixups maybe lol?

I mean that certain characters don't have good options against it. 665B? 2C mash beats it. IAD j.B/C? Better hope you don't have a weakpoint on you. Predict and block it? Congrats, now you get to deal with Azrael's pressure. Predict it and make it whiff? May or may not too far away to actually punish. The only character I've played that didn't have to deal with this move so much was Mu, and that was obviously just because of her good zoning game. None of the other characters I've played, all of whom are melee characters, have had such fortune.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Re: Makoto, my guess is that CS1 and CS2 scared them into making her suck, and they're too afraid to make her too good again.

Tsubaki I just don't get. There's a lot of things that could make that character annoying, though. Or maybe she's a lot better than America thinks she is.

[D.R.F.]

All this salt for azrael;/

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[Errol]

Re: Makoto, my guess is that CS1 and CS2 scared them into making her suck, and they're too afraid to make her too good again.

Tsubaki I just don't get. There's a lot of things that could make that character annoying, though. Or maybe she's a lot better than America thinks she is.

the correct answer is that arc think she's a lot better than she is. Tsubaki players are pretty famous for whining about their character in Japan too. But it's also true, She's B in every tier list since CP hit except the ones where people put her at C (Though mostly that is the dan ranking aggregation based ones, cause the top 10 tsubaki players are low dan, with konan/kuresu sitting about 15 dan).

And well, she got nerfs in this revision.

So if people like her, as she is, play her. Don't expect buffs, cause that's just silly to think will actually happen at this point.

I'm a Rachel main now and I'm happy for it. Hell I just got buffed.

[D.R.F.]

Yea honest it sucks to play tsubaki. Ill still sub her, cuz I don't like dropping characters, but like its pretty ridiculous the work she has to put in to do anything. Fireball chamge is nice thougj

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