NecroTheReaper Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 It doesnt necessarily have to be knowledgeable peope as much as they need to actually address problems with things people think there are problems with. Its not like the people making the game play at a competetive level, so they just need to listen and not respond like: "X character has a bad neutral game." "Ok, lets give them some proration buffs".
Lucalibur Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 i completely agree with you on the feedback part. let's narrow the questions down given equal quantity and quality of playtesting and feedback, are balance decisions better made by a single person, or by a group? I still think a group is optimal for this, though maybe not as important as in the feedback stage because by the end of that everyone is gonna understand the different viewpoints and probably agree on most balancing decisions. Still good to be able to get some final opinions from everyone, though.
Myoro Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 I feel like I could balance the game perfectly myself with input from other people. But I'm sure everyone else thinks that too. It really shouldn't be THAT hard if you just want to tweak things... It's different when you actually work on a game. Me, my friends, and other co-workers are having trouble balancing an turn based RPG we're making of all things, I'm really glad we didn't start out trying to make a FG, because we would have been obliterated by the daunting nature of that task. And to tweak things still requires that you know the full picture. Nerf character "A" in way "B" so that characters "C-F" stands a chance may seem simple, but then character "A" has a impossibly bad time against characters "G-K." And when you consider that you have to do several changes to several characters the whole ordeal gets more complex.
SuperJ Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 i'm feeling holy grail-like. here comes a curveball! you have a complete and established fighting game which is due for a rebalance. 50% of your playtesters feel the characters should have power levels approximately equal to CP Jin. the other half think characters should have CP Ragna power levels. let's take "power level" to mean... freedom to impose your playstyle on the opponent as opposed to a character that can literally do everything (e.g. kokonoe). single or multiple balancers? just curious. you can probably tell where i stand on this topic
Errol Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 well, what are they actually doing? I get the idea there is a single balancer over at arc.
mAc Chaos Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 that being "whatever the whiskey tells us tonight"
Dreize Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 i mean that, the shorter the combo is, the less time you have to continue the combo in human form to build back meter. in theory anyway. particularly with the cooldown on wolf gauge recovery in place. Basically, net wolf gauge gain/loss from point of combo.... if the net is about even I would guess you'd run out eventually cause you have to use some meter just to get the first hit. Ah, yes, of course. It's probably going to be a bigger issue midscreen, and with combos that involve several human --> wolf and vice versa transitions. Valkenhayn players may have to turtle/use human mode more before approaching as well. How big of an issue it is going to be is still up in the air of course. Right now I'm just worried about whether or not we still have proper combos off of a w[j.A]. that being "whatever the whiskey tells us tonight" And bingo was his name-o.
zeth07 Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 It's different when you actually work on a game. Me, my friends, and other co-workers are having trouble balancing an turn based RPG we're making of all things, I'm really glad we didn't start out trying to make a FG, because we would have been obliterated by the daunting nature of that task. And to tweak things still requires that you know the full picture. Nerf character "A" in way "B" so that characters "C-F" stands a chance may seem simple, but then character "A" has a impossibly bad time against characters "G-K." And when you consider that you have to do several changes to several characters the whole ordeal gets more complex. It's not really different if you're asking people who understand their character. If you look at the Azrael changes so far, the majority of them I would consider fixes of things that I personally even wanted well before the existence of the update. Because when you play the character you can tell when things don't make sense. The other reason I would call them "fixes" instead of "buffs" like some people think is because they don't directly impact the opponent or the match-up. Not counting the actual buff of special cancel drives in OD. There is a difference between asking for things that make sense / making "adjustments" and outright doing random buffs / nerfs. Like the Bang changes from EX to CP made no sense and I have no idea what they were thinking. They could've added the new moves and tweaked things, but instead they changed a bunch of stuff that really didn't need changing.
Errol Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Ah, yes, of course. It's probably going to be a bigger issue midscreen, and with combos that involve several human --> wolf and vice versa transitions. Valkenhayn players may have to turtle/use human mode more before approaching as well. How big of an issue it is going to be is still up in the air of course. I'm just worried about whether or not we actually have proper combos off of a w[j.A]. well, we'll have to see. if they actually pushed it to M I would imagine you couldn't really get anything. see, the thing is, the only reason I can think of to do that to wJA is that they want the combo to be shorter to make wolf gauge more of a problem. Otherwise I would think, why don't they just nerf the P1 to 60? so the combo now would have to end up shorter, but it's already pretty short and does about 2k? I'm not too familiar with how his combos work, but I get the idea that he might not be able to do a real combo. And this is a combo game, so I think it's kinda silly to make it so a character doesn't really do.. combos. Seems like it would've been better to combine proration/damage tweaks with wolf gauge tweaks instead of tweaking combos even shorter than a jab combo.
mAc Chaos Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 It's not really different if you're asking people who understand their character. If you look at the Azrael changes so far, the majority of them I would consider fixes of things that I personally even wanted well before the existence of the update. Because when you play the character you can tell when things don't make sense. The other reason I would call them "fixes" instead of "buffs" like some people think is because they don't directly impact the opponent or the match-up. Not counting the actual buff of special cancel drives in OD. There is a difference between asking for things that make sense / making "adjustments" and outright doing random buffs / nerfs. Like the Bang changes from EX to CP made no sense and I have no idea what they were thinking. They could've added the new moves and tweaked things, but instead they changed a bunch of stuff that really didn't need changing. I'm starting to think that they want to make things different for difference's sake. Someone mentioned that they give buffs to the top tiers so they feel like they got something out of the patch. As if they have to give everyone a consolation prize to convince them to get the new game, instead of just balancing it like it should be. If you look at it like that then the way they just flip the table over every game makes more sense, compared to how Capcom will just tune each character a bit instead of completely rearranging them.
Dreize Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 see, the thing is, the only reason I can think of to do that to wJA is that they want the combo to be shorter to make wolf gauge more of a problem. Otherwise I would think, why don't they just nerf the P1 to 60? That's what I thought as well. But in terms of wolf regen time it's probably his wolf worst starter, and it's definitely his worst wolf starter in terms of damage. I will say that it is his best wolf starter in terms of mix-up potential though, which is probably why they did it. so the combo now would have to end up shorter, but it's already pretty short and does about 2k? I'm not too familiar with how his combos work, but I get the idea that he might not be able to do a real combo. And this is a combo game, so I think it's kinda silly to make it so a character doesn't really do.. combos. Seems like it would've been better to combine proration/damage tweaks with wolf gauge tweaks instead of tweaking combos even shorter than a jab combo. Midscreen BnB is extremely short and does about 2k, you'll end up using more wolf meter than you gain back as well. Corner BnB is is pretty short as far as corner combos go but it's definitely longer than the midscreen BnB and gives Valkenhayn a nice surplus of wolf meter. It also does around 2k as well. But yeah, I 100% agree and this is my main issue with the change, not having combos is a poor fix. Especially when there are other options that were clearly overlooked.
50-50罠 Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Dreize the regeneration cool down might not be long and his ja combos would just be shorter because like you indicated ja is a huge mix up tool, so lessen the dmg on it. Which make sense, but the meter regeneration is the interesting nerf; nonetheless. Sent from my SCH-R530M using Tapatalk
Dreize Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Yeah, of course, we don't know. The 5 key unanswered questions regarding his changes are, in my opinion: Collapsed: Questions: So basically these are the key questions that we have left regarding his changes: 1. How fast are grounded beast cannons now? 2. After transforming into human mode how long does it take for Valkenhayn to start regenerating wolf meter? 3. Is w[j.B] going to go from a N starter to a S or VS starter? Or is there some other possible option? 4. Is w[j.A] going to go from a S starter to a VS starter? Or is there some other possible option? 5. Right now this is our standard midscreen w[j.A] BnB - j.A > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5D > h[5B > 5C > j.A > j.B > dj.B > j.C] [2028 DMG, 16 HG]. How much shorter can they make this exactly? Will we even have legitimate combos off of w[j.A] now? This is probably the most important question. w[j.A] is already an S starter though. Nerfing the damage from a 2k combo to something like 1.5k or 1k seems a bit redundant but I'd take that over nerfing the combo starter time any day of the week because combo potential > combo damage.
XDest Posted February 14, 2014 Posted February 14, 2014 Yeah, of course, we don't know. The 5 key unanswered questions regarding his changes are, in my opinion: [collapse=Questions][/collapse] w[j.A] is already an S starter though. Nerfing the damage from a 2k combo to something like 1.5k or 1k seems a bit redundant but I'd take that over nerfing the combo starter time any day of the week because combo potential > combo damage. They seem really hesitant in fiddling with core character's strengths with this patch if they're not new console characters. So it makes sense. Why would they do anything to Valkenhayn's wolf mixup (other than damage) when it practically defines the character? I mean, their answer in BBCP initially was to give him even better wolf mixup, and nerf the damage.
50-50罠 Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) I guess as long as I still get good corner carry and meter I can adjust for the dampen ja combos. But I hope the cool down is as fast as Ignis, if so then I can work with it most def. Sent from my SCH-R530M using Tapatalk Edited February 15, 2014 by 50-50罠
Tokkan Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv169089293 This stream will have a BlazBlue stage event in about 6 hours, but I saw a new trailer for the update on it among the trailer reel that's showing in the empty airspace between stage events.
bakahyl Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) Based on the new trailer from that live event, Terumi's new low DD either doesn't have that many hits or they didn't mash the move at all edit: the trailer is shown again and this time i paid better attention Kagura's new OD version of his Ryuuou Zangaoushou doesn't look that impressive (it seems just more hits) Terumi's Jarin Renshouga can be thrown diagonally Not sure what to think of Kokonoe's rocket DD finisher on the ice gun and gattling canon Edited February 15, 2014 by bakahyl
Dreize Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 They seem really hesitant in fiddling with core character's strengths with this patch if they're not new console characters. So it makes sense. Why would they do anything to Valkenhayn's wolf mixup (other than damage) when it practically defines the character? I mean, their answer in BBCP initially was to give him even better wolf mixup, and nerf the damage. I definitely agree with the notion that they really wanted to fully embrace Valkenhayn's wolf mix-up in this version. Heck, wolf brake w[j.A] is actually in one of his challenge mode combos now. And his challenge #30 is impossible without the Wolf Sweep Loop which also requires the wolf brake. Plus the new wolf normals, of course. Regarding this patch, the wolf gauge cooldown nerf will effect his wolf mix-up. He'll most likely be able to do less of it because of this (the severity of course will entirely depend on how much they changed it). And even so, there are still plenty of possible changes that they could have given him (5D throw/head invulnerability nerf, disallowing certain normals to be geschwind cancellable, give a start-up nerf to w[236D], less hitstun on w[j.A], removing wolf cancellable properties from 5A/2A, 6B/6C less + on block, disallowing him to cancel into geschwind wolf on whiff, etc the list goes on) that wouldn't directly effect his mix-up too much. Instead they went for silly/random stuff. Maybe they want to keep him top tier, maybe they just didn't want to change him too much. This might explain why they did random insignificant stuff, to feign actual change. I of course don't know the real answer.
Errol Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Dogura's Azrael matchup chart キツい = 4.0 ちょいキツい = 4.5 五分付近 = 5.0 ちょっと有利 = 5.5 有利 = 6.0 4 Hazama, Kokonoe 4.5 Carl 5.0 Tao Ragna Litchi Hakumen Relius Rachel Valk Tager 5.5 Jin Mu Noel Platinum 6.0 all others (Amane Bullet Tsubaki Makoto Nu Arakune Izayoi Bang Kagura Terumi) Edited February 17, 2014 by Errol
GenoWhirl Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 Dogura's Azrael matchup chart pardon my outta the loop scrubbiness but who is Dogura
Angel-tastic Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 So has anyone seen footage from the new build published anywhere yet? I heard that there might be some last weekend, but I missed it though.
bakahyl Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOeMJ1pE-tM
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