heavymetalmixer Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Less damage and mixup i'll give you but i really need my hands on the game to judge the heat gain. I just don't buy that right now. It's not like they reduced his heat gain, but the combo routes are shorter, then less heat gain.
LaowPing Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Y do people keep sleeping on Terumi? He was never bad in the first place, just meter reliant which is solved in one combo. He has mix ups they just don't have the best reward. His jump 2D is harder to combo from since they reduced the hit stun but it was a good mix up when used correctly, it just has less reward. His command grab is decent but people seem to prefer staying with pressure for some reason. On top of that, no one mentioned his buffs. His 236D is faster and his pressure reset has less recover. Plus, mid screen jump loops give him mid screen damage that isn't so character specific. Terumi isn't bad. I think people just don't take him seriously. Sent from my ZTE-X500 using Tapatalk 2
heavymetalmixer Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Y do people keep sleeping on Terumi? He was never bad in the first place, just meter reliant which is solved in one combo. He has mix ups they just don't have the best reward. His jump 2D is harder to combo from since they reduced the hit stun but it was a good mix up when used correctly, it just has less reward. His command grab is decent but people seem to prefer staying with pressure for some reason. On top of that, no one mentioned his buffs. His 236D is faster and his pressure reset has less recover. Plus, mid screen jump loops give him mid screen damage that isn't so character specific. Terumi isn't bad. I think people just don't take him seriously. Sent from my ZTE-X500 using Tapatalk 2 It's just that you need to choose right in what options you spend the meter, or you're screwed. Still, with that heat gain, the 5C(1) RC mixups are very good, though they don't give good rewards outside the corner.
Poultrygeist Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Y do people keep sleeping on Terumi? He was never bad in the first place, just meter reliant which is solved in one combo. He has mix ups they just don't have the best reward. His jump 2D is harder to combo from since they reduced the hit stun but it was a good mix up when used correctly, it just has less reward. His command grab is decent but people seem to prefer staying with pressure for some reason. On top of that, no one mentioned his buffs. His 236D is faster and his pressure reset has less recover. Plus, mid screen jump loops give him mid screen damage that isn't so character specific. Terumi isn't bad. I think people just don't take him seriously. Sent from my ZTE-X500 using Tapatalk 2 Because character status is relative. Terumi may be better in some regards but a lot of other characters that were already better than him also got better in certain ways. Whether that means Terumi is truly bad is debatable, but he's for sure inferior to a lot of people in most peoples' opinion.
someonewhodied Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 You guys are looking at just terumi. Compare his moves and movement to those of other characters. They have options against his moves, he doesn't against theirs. He isn't a bad character, his matchups in this specific game just happen to be bad.
Errol Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 It's pretty funny because he's built to be almost as anti-zoner as Bang is. you'd think he'd be good against Nu in this game but probably not.
someonewhodied Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 I personally see terumi as "anti-rushdown" because his antiair and 5D cover almost all approaches against him in theory. He also has pressure that is near endless but requires the opponent to be close. What better way than make them come to you? You just need to maintain a health lead In practice though: The biggest issue is that almost every character can have options in the air against antiairs, especially the more commonly used ones. (Azrael Divekick, Hakumen Agito, Hazama Downward chains, Nu/Lambda's new j.2Ds, Arakune and izayoi teleports, carl and relius have doll to lead approaches) and other characters just straight up ignore his 5D or have no need to approach in the first place (Tager sledge, Bullet Command dash, Relius Ledley + 2D poke, Carl can have the doll just come up from behind, Bang Drive Guardpoint, and any real projectiles)
Airk Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Really? I thought your point was: And in my interpretation (and probably the others') is that you said: "Having a good Drive (what is a 'good' Drive?) protects characters against stupid changes (whatever you mean by that, what's stupid?) to other things (what other things?), but sometimes they can become a weaker character".Now, this sounds like you were focused too much on the Drives to evaluate how a characters performs on each game, which led me to my post explaning that wasnt the case at all.Yeah? Having a good drive (A strong central feature) insulates you against changes to your character elsewhere. i.e. "If someone nerfs your normals, but your drive is good, you can still be solid, whereas if you got the same nerfed normals with a garbage drive, you'd probably be bad." You are reading beyond what I am implying. Nowhere did I say that a drive is the sole thing, or even the primary thing, but if you have something about your character that is strong, it buoys you up against other changes. That's what I said. If we're really on the same page here (or even book), then be more objective (give good examples) and less ambiguous (avoid subjective terms like "stupid", "things", improper terminology etc).It will be much more easier to understand what you're trying to say The funny thing is that those adjectives are irrelevant. A strong drive insulates you from ANY changes elsewhere, stupid or otherwise. Stop getting hung up on irrelevant details and look at the big picture.Look: If you are Hazama, you have a strong drive. therefore, Arc could nerf your normals and you could still be solid. But if you are Tsubaki, and your drive is not strong, you suffer more from that nerf. And in reverse, if you have good normals, you can better survive a nerf to your drive. I remain baffled by you continued argument against what seems like the most obvious thing ever.Also, what does giving examples have to do with being objective? :PWhat is it about Terumi that makes his matchups bad? I know little about the character. (Because I haaaaate him on a strictly personality basis. He's even worse than Hazama, who is at least classy about being a jerk.)
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 So its not so much Terumi is a bad character, its just everyone else is superior to him in every way. Dat's funny. I can see that being true tho. About the whole "Drive" debate going on, I think we're getting too hung up on semantics. Let's not thing of drives as central features of the characters, but rather extensions of what they can do already.
Dreiko Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 So its not so much Terumi is a bad character, its just everyone else is superior to him in every way. Dat's funny. I can see that being true tho. About the whole "Drive" debate going on, I think we're getting too hung up on semantics. Let's not thing of drives as central features of the characters, but rather extensions of what they can do already. The issue comes mainly from chars who do indeed function as you describe being pitted against chars like Valkenhain and Rachel and Arakune who rise and fall with the strength of their drives. When someone who plays Makoto sees the utility that comes from some of those other drives she'll feel like she got the short end of the stick but of course her other set of normals compensate for this. Still, when you just compare drives and not entire playstyles it's a pretty clear difference and while of course you shouldn't reach any conclusions by merely comparing drives it still can make for a sensical argument to have some of those less drive-reliant people go "man, I wish my drive transformed me into something else or allowed me to fly off-screen for 3 seconds...".
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 The issue comes mainly from chars who do indeed function as you describe being pitted against chars like Valkenhain and Rachel and Arakune who rise and fall with the strength of their drives. When someone who plays Makoto sees the utility that comes from some of those other drives she'll feel like she got the short end of the stick but of course her other set of normals compensate for this. Still, when you just compare drives and not entire playstyles it's a pretty clear difference and while of course you shouldn't reach any conclusions by merely comparing drives it still can make for a sensical argument to have some of those less drive-reliant people go "man, I wish my drive transformed me into something else or allowed me to fly off-screen for 3 seconds...". Hey, I never said that some drives aren't blatantly better than others or that some rely on it more so than their normals, just that there's more to it than that. They go hand in hand; Rachel's drive compliments her normals and that's why she was so strong for so long. Actually, I think that's what Blazblue should strive for, drives and normals complimenting each other.
Dreiko Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Hey, I never said that some drives aren't blatantly better than others or that some rely on it more so than their normals, just that there's more to it than that. They go hand in hand; Rachel's drive compliments her normals and that's why she was so strong for so long. Actually, I think that's what Blazblue should strive for, drives and normals complimenting each other. It's more like Rachel's drive is so awesome it makes otherwise terrible normals not suck. If you wanna find a drive which complements normals then something like Azrael's would be best I think. Like, it fits with the story too, her normals suck cause she never tries to fight seriously and if she just uses the wind to toy with you. This is why I like her a ton and she's been my sub since CT, she's not really ever "fighting", she's more like dancing around doing whatever and you die in the process lol.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Mmmmm, I dunno. I'm not really fond of plot dictating how strong characters are lol
Tong Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Look: If you are Hazama, you have a strong drive. therefore, Arc could nerf your normals and you could still be solid. But if you are Tsubaki, and your drive is not strong, you suffer more from that nerf. And in reverse, if you have good normals, you can better survive a nerf to your drive. And here we are again talking about things discussed on the last page, and yet again, separating characters inherent strengths/weaknesses from Drives. When you say that "characters with strong drives can't be bad, no matter what you do to them" then you're failing to consider the other attributes that make him strong. I really dont want to turn this into a character thread but I have to make my point here, I'll try to keep it short. So you wanna talk about Hazama? Then let's talk Hazama. Hazama is a rushdown character with very good mobility, thanks to his Drive. And on top of that he has many good close up moves, like a very fast and deceptive overhead, a bunch of moves that are plus on block, a freaking command grab and good mixup options. His defensive options includes extremely good antairs, that can beat many approaches and a pseudo-DP that can be useful. One of his strongest attributes is being able to convert *anything* into substantial damage if he has at least 50 meter, which isnt really a problem for him. Ultimately his strengths (mentioned unti now) are good and versatile normals, good mixups (which translates into good potential to pressure the opponent) and above-average damage. These things count and matter alot in BlazBlue. And where does the Drive come in? It basically boosts and enhance all those attributes he already has, like he can get in *easily* because of his Drive. Some characters dont even no choice but to block and let him to his stuff, and that's very very good! And even more, it gives him even more strengths because besides giving him excelent mobility it also let's his control space. Space control is another thing that counts and matters alot in BlazBlue. His Drive only completes and enhances his already strong attributes Oh sure, he doesnt have a reliable reversal... but that it's not a problem for Hazama at all. Why? Because all it takes for Hazama is a gap to jump, throw his chain and literally dart the fuck out where he is, and as long as he's out of the corner and far from you he controls space, and against certain characters even the match. So there you have it, a character with good mobility, good zoning, good normals, good damage, good mixups and defensive mechanics that help him alot to compesate his weakness? How the hell can a character like this be bad? It can't, he's been designed around the very concept of versatily and areas where he excels at. Of course Hazama will always be a good character, by concept alone. But his Drive only completes and enhances his already strong attributes (I said it twice because it's important). And you're seriously telling me he would still be solid without good mixups, good damage, good and versatile normals and ability to convert into massive damage? I'm not convinced.
Dreiko Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Mmmmm, I dunno. I'm not really fond of plot dictating how strong characters are lol It's not how strong she is that it dictates as much as her actual fighting style. I think it's a very smart way of expressing her personality through a moveset basically.
TD Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Just be aware guys, no character is safe from the nerfbat, strong normals, drive, both, or otherwise. Everyone can be hit, whether they have been the best forever or not. Likewise, everyone can be buffed. Don't let past games lull you into a sense of security or despair, because the next game could change your thoughts about everything, make you believe it was all a lie. Yes, even Tsubaki could be good, if the devs allow it. (But apparently they don't like her too much, so this is like the only exception lol)
Errol Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 tsubaki is good in cp2 no matter what you read here.
LaowPing Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Something we aren't looking at is that drive and normals are not separate entities. Kicking and punching someone is just as much of a mechanic as Hazama's chains are. A good drive is a good button. A good normal is also a good button. Ragna and Jin have good drives even though they don't do something as weird as a Hazama chain or Rachael's wind.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 The difference is that Hazama's and Rachel's drives allow superior movement, which is going to be a hell of a lot more stronger than either Ragna or Jin can do. The top tiers through the years have generally been characters who have pros that severely outweigh their cons, and most of the time those pros are godlike movement and space control: Rachel, Tao, Hazama, Litchi, Valkenhayn, etc etc. Ragna & Jin do stay up in the tier list due to their consistency and extremely good and versatile moveset(Rag's 5B and Jin's 5C for example). So yea, like TD said, really depends on what they want the developers to do with the characters.
Errol Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Rachel has only been top in CT and CP. Ragna and Jin have been rated S more games than not.
LaowPing Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Rachel has only been top in CT and CP. Ragna and Jin have been rated S more games than not. When was Jin ever S- tier?
TD Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Several times... CT he moved to S toward the end (generally considered fourth best of that game), cs2 I believe, and both Cp's. I think he was low tier only once or twice.
Stellarcircle5 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 When was Jin ever S- tier?People thought he was god tier when CP 1.0 dropped. But that was mostly due to him being easier to win with at early stages of the games life cycle. He dropped to A tier some time after. Jin in CP2 looks very strong, mostly in part to gods like Tetsuwo and Fenrich bodying all of Japan. I predict his placing will shift a bit as tech is figured out for the other strong characters though. Same can be said for Ragna.
Dreiko Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 I think Jin and Terumi got their changes mixed up cause Jin was a strong solid char who got nearly all buffs (and big ones too like extra jump cancels in normals which he has never been able to jump cancel before like 2D) while Terumi was a mediocre char who was nerfed for absolutely no reason.
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