heavymetalmixer Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Honestly if they make the command grab not slow as all hell, the lack of little to no high/low mixup would not bother me. The rewards off of it are decent enough (even though it is very short starter. Thanks team blue -_-). But a more serious question, who has better stagger pressure then terumi? I really gotta hear this. Jin, I think.
Fame96 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Jin, I think. Maybe it's most of the Jin players I fight get too predictable or it's my habit of being very disrespectful but I find alot of jin's stuff easy to IB and mash. Although one jin player I know will prove me wrong very quickly.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 The Jin's you fight must be pretty terrible then, because he is really hard to disrespect reliably. He pretty much makes a living out of the fuck ups of the opponent. Defending is one of the most annoying things about fighting him. As for who has better stagger than Terumi, hard to say but I'd go with Hazama. +1 frame advantage and 6f startup on 2A yo. Only thing that's really faster are certain 5A's and those whiff on crouching.
StylisH Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Honestly if they make the command grab not slow as all hell, the lack of little to no high/low mixup would not bother me. The rewards off of it are decent enough (even though it is very short starter. Thanks team blue -_-). But a more serious question, who has better stagger pressure then terumi? I really gotta hear this. Hazama, Ragna, Jin, RELIUS just to name a few
Tong Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 CSII, CP, and CPE. While not S-tier in CT and CS1.1, he was still pretty high up, A+ material. Here are my two cents (that nobody asked for) regarding what makes a character strong. What makes a character strong? 1. High reliable damage off most confirms and ridiculous damage off certain confirms. What I mean by reliable damage is that the character has ways to get damage be in neutral and off strong mix-up and doesn't require too many resources to get that damage (Heat, consumable Drives) and when they do use resources, their damage is often ridiculous. 2. A strong neutral game, this often comes in the form of high mobility or strong normals/specials (Ragna 5B da gawd or Tao/Valk/Hazama tier mobility). 3. Defensive options (reliable backdashes like Nu's/Mu's, DPs, counters, etc). 4. Strong pressure, mix-up, and okizeme. Now let's look at Terumi... 1. Reliable damage? Nope, he requires lots of Heat to even do the reliable damage of the likes of Ragna or Jin. 2. A strong neutral game? His neutral game is ok, he has a couple of decent normals and specials to throw out but nothing too outstanding. 3. Defensive options? He gains access to some decent reversals once he has Heat but then he won't be able to use that Heat for his damage. 4. Strong pressure, mix-up, and oki? His pressure is pretty ok with 2A +1 and 5B +2 etc, his mix-up is easy to see coming unless you do some gimmicky mix-up with Heat and his oki is nothing to write home about. All in all, Terumi has his strong points but his biggest shortcoming is that he does shitty damage and he has to choose whether to spend his Heat for mix-up, defense, or to at least do some damage. His neutral game is also pretty straightforward and weak. Sure he gains Heat easier than other characters but he needs to spend it as soon as he gets it in order to stay relevant. The most important things in the BB series have always been high, reliable damage and a strong neutral game. High reliable damage can be attained through strong normals in neutral or with strong mix-up (usually off corner oki). A strong neutral game is just that, which can be attained with strong, long-reaching normals and specials or by having high mobility. Terumi does not have either of those important qualities, so he's poo-poo, whereas Derpvee-13 possesses both of those qualities and still dabbles in the other qualities (one of the best backdashes in the game and full screen, low risk mix-up, etc). Perfect, this is the kind of analysis and considerations that should be made to rate a character's performance in the game. Another element that can make a character strong is their ability to deal with wakeup options by having tools that either punish delay tech and rolls, without having to guess, or limits their options to "block or reversal", Litchi and 1.1 Jin had tools like that. This falls under the category of good okizeme but I just wanted to be specific about the wakeup aspect.
DJ_Blactricity Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Is Terumi really that bad to y'all? Terumi seems like a good character to me. I feel he's designed around playing footsies. Don't confuse footsies with neutral though. If you don't know or understand what footsies are, read the footsies handbook on sonic hurricane(same principles still apply). Terumi has all the tools to excel with a strategy centered around around playing footsies at midrange, and making your opponent respect 5D. His movement and how his other tools are used can make him hard to deal with. Smart usage of meter(Not spending meter every chance you get to add damage to confirms, or recklessly throwing out supers in neutral) is also important. His damage, on average, may not be the highest by doing this, but I would take 2-2.5k with 50 meter especially when a combo ending with a 100 heat 632146D can reach 5k. You can still feasibly kill in 3 combos. Disclaimer: I'm kinda biased because I've been bodied by Lostsoul's Terumi, but that showed Terumi can be a dangerous character in the right hands.
heavymetalmixer Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Perfect, this is the kind of analysis and considerations that should be made to rate a character's performance in the game. Another element that can make a character strong is their ability to deal with wakeup options by having tools that either punish delay tech and rolls, without having to guess, or limits their options to "block or reversal", Litchi and 1.1 Jin had tools like that. This falls under the category of good okizeme but I just wanted to be specific about the wakeup aspect. That's something that people usually don't see in Terumi, he has good tools for dealing with delayed techs and rolls in the corner.
Dreiko Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Terumi is bottom tier but since BB is balanced if someone is clearly superior they can always easily win in a way which makes the character seem good. Doesn't mean he is good, just that he is still viable but requires a lot of work for rewards that other characters get handed to them.
StylisH Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Is Terumi really that bad to y'all? Terumi seems like a good character to me. I feel he's designed around playing footsies. Don't confuse footsies with neutral though. If you don't know or understand what footsies are, read the footsies handbook on sonic hurricane(same principles still apply). Terumi has all the tools to excel with a strategy centered around around playing footsies at midrange, and making your opponent respect 5D. His movement and how his other tools are used can make him hard to deal with. Smart usage of meter(Not spending meter every chance you get to add damage to confirms, or recklessly throwing out supers in neutral) is also important. His damage, on average, may not be the highest by doing this, but I would take 2-2.5k with 50 meter especially when a combo ending with a 100 heat 632146D can reach 5k. You can still feasibly kill in 3 combos. Disclaimer: I'm kinda biased because I've been bodied by Lostsoul's Terumi, but that showed Terumi can be a dangerous character in the right hands. Terumi isn't a "bad" character per se, he just doesn't have the collection of tools that a lot of other characters above him possess (Hazama, Litchi, Koko, Jin, Mu, etc) Even if you thought of it in terms of playstyle, he's kind of close to last in the race, as his rushdown is topped by quite a few of the cast (Valk, Noel, Ragna, Relius, hell even Makoto and Tsubaki have better tools in many scenarios)
LaowPing Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Lol at people saying Jin has better stagger pressure than Terumi. I'm a Jin main and Terumi's pressure is way stronger. Jin's 6B is easy to hit out of and is one of his few moves that's plus on block and keeps him close to the opponent. Terumi's 6B must be respected. You can't jump out of it (air unblockable) it's faster,has foot unvul, and can be used off of more gattlings. Plus, his J.2D s plus on block and 5C(1), into J.2D is a true block string. As for who has better stagger than Terumi, hard to say but I'd go with Hazama. +1 frame advantage and 6f startup on 2A yo. Only thing that's really faster are certain 5A's and those whiff on crouching. 6A isn't stagger pressure, it's a mixup (kind of wish Terumi had one of those though). And Terumi has the same stagger normals Hazama has. I think the problem is that the standard of what's good and what's bad is so high in BB. On paper, Terumi is a really respectable character. Great, safe footies, strong pressure, and insane burst damage in overdrive to compensate for the lack of rewards he get's off of mix-ups. His meter gain is the best in the game which is nice since he relies on meter management. It's just the fact that we have so many Azraels and Kokonoes and Litchis that are known for dominating some match-ups that Terumi get's seen as lesser since he doesn't do anything that's insanely strong.
Errol Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Lol at people saying Jin has better stagger pressure than Terumi. I'm a Jin main and Terumi's pressure is way stronger. Jin's 6B is easy to hit out of and is one of his few moves that's plus on block and keeps him close to the opponent. Terumi's 6B must be respected. You can't jump out of it (air unblockable) it's faster,has foot unvul, and can be used off of more gattlings. Plus, his J.2D s plus on block and 5C(1), into J.2D is a true block string. DISCLAIMER: Jin main that thinks Jin has never been S
Tong Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 His meter gain is the best in the game which is nice since he relies on meter management Meter (and by that I mean Heat) reliance is never a good thing, it usually means the character needs to spend resources to be on par with characters that does the same things without meter. And he only gets this extra meter from confirms and offensive actions, which means that if he's put in disadvantage quickly he wont be able to reverse the situation easily, and in game full of rushdown monsters, and characters with better normals than him, this happens alot. The best characters either become even better with meter (by inflicting more damage or a harder to block mixup) or use it supplement their poor defensive tools. Read @Moy_X7's post again and you will see what BlazBlue's standards for good and bad are.
someonewhodied Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Didn't read this thread after my post yesterday so meh. Nu matchup analysis (in extend) by me (with short not-so-in-depth descriptions): (For only her worse matchups) 3-7: Noel, Bang Noel: This matchup has always been hard for nu. Sure you can zone, but if you predict wrong twice in a match you're fucked. You have no way out of noel resetting pressure either unless you make a proper guess of an estimated 1/4 chance. Bang: This matchup isn't even about nails messing up your drive. Bang can teleport. Off of guardpointing any projectile. He doesn't NEED to clash out projectiles or stop you from using them. He has near endless blockstrings and without a DP you can't OS his mixups. Gravity seed nerf means his teleport distance isn't cut to 1/3rd anymore. 3.5-6.5 Hazama, Izayoi, Azrael Hazama; Chains, Nuff said, Everything you can do minus gravity seed, he can do better. He can also use 50 heat to punish anything you throw out while grounded ON REACTION. Also you don't have a DP so good luck getting out of his pressure resets. Unless you properly backdash specific moves. THEN we good. Izayoi: This matchup would be heavily in nu's favor if it weren't for gain arte mode. If you let izayoi land just one combo you fucked up. You have no way of actually locking down izayoi in 2.0 because gravity seed no longer cuts teleport length by 1/3rd also. It only stops movement. The gravity seed nerf really goofed with nu in this matchup. Azrael: Growler into Phanlax. This gatling is annoying. Also his damn backdash and nu's inability to OS his crossups. 7 frame crossup gustav. Have fun with that. (though i hear that dash-TK specials got a lot harder to do with azrael) 4-6: Carl, Tager, Kokonoe Carl: This matchup used to be a bit harder but drives piercing and continuing for a bit really helps. You still gotta stop the doll and carl at the same time though. its not THAT bad but its pretty bad. Tager: Welllllll, just don't get magnetized. I'd say this matchup is 7-3 till you get magnetized, then that matchup number is reversed. Kokonoe: LOL Graviton>Fireball>Teleport, Gravity seed can't stop teleports anymore. Basically, anyone with a good teleport has a nice option vs nu now. I think gravity seed broke. Can i return it and get a new one? If anyone wants more in depth explanations on matchups, i'll PROBABLY post more in depth stuff in nu matchup threads after i've gotten to try out the matchups myself. This is just based off what i've seen. Tao and Valk are actually pretty bad vs nu. Since nu has a frame 4 head-invul antiair now, its possible to completely OS valk/tao pressure/blockstrings. Also all the options in neutral too.
Stellarcircle5 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Maybe it's most of the Jin players I fight get too predictable or it's my habit of being very disrespectful but I find alot of jin's stuff easy to IB and mash. Although one jin player I know will prove me wrong very quickly.Jin is a frametrap machine and his pressure is some of the most consistent and rewarding in the game. If he's going for airtight strings and you don't have a DP, your only hope is to IB 6C, otherwise you get counterhit by 6B and eat like 5K. Couple that with the fact that within his pressure he has access to his absolutely bonkers throw bait/TRM game, it's no surprise that his pressure is so strong. Finally, if he does manage to open you up, you get put in a vortex of unreactable 3 way freeze mixups. A truly good Jin will not let you play the game and make you feel like a damn idiot. He's pretty versatile when he goes in. Terumi on the other hand is like an annoying fly. You just kind of wait around holding down-back and he eventually goes away.
Fame96 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Jin is a frametrap machine and his pressure is some of the most consistent and rewarding in the game. If he's going for airtight strings and you don't have a DP, your only hope is to IB 6C, otherwise you get counterhit by 6B and eat like 5K. Couple that with the fact that within his pressure he has access to his absolutely bonkers throw bait/TRM game, it's no surprise that his pressure is so strong. Finally, if he does manage to open you up, you get put in a vortex of unreactable 3 way freeze mixups. A truly good Jin will not let you play the game and make you feel like a damn idiot. He's pretty versatile when he goes in. Terumi on the other hand is like an annoying fly. You just kind of wait around holding down-back and he eventually goes away. Yea. I really need to find better jins. I only fought 5 good jins (DJ_Blactricity being one of them) maybe when I get CP extend i'll have to look for some. I'm looking forward to some of Terumi's new combos though. It's abit more worth it to use meter midscreen since you can get most of it back in the same combo. Need to test corner stuff though.
someonewhodied Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Jin is a frametrap machine and his pressure is some of the most consistent and rewarding in the game. If he's going for airtight strings and you don't have a DP, your only hope is to IB 6C, otherwise you get counterhit by 6B and eat like 5K. Couple that with the fact that within his pressure he has access to his absolutely bonkers throw bait/TRM game, it's no surprise that his pressure is so strong. Finally, if he does manage to open you up, you get put in a vortex of unreactable 3 way freeze mixups. A truly good Jin will not let you play the game and make you feel like a damn idiot. He's pretty versatile when he goes in. Terumi on the other hand is like an annoying fly. You just kind of wait around holding down-back and he eventually goes away. You can just antiair 6B on reaction though. Its not THAT fast and is head attribute.
chzchan Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Terumi on the other hand is like an annoying fly. You just kind of wait around holding down-back and he eventually goes away. I have been put into situations where Terumi players have been pretty persistent. It actually isn't that easy to upback barrier out of Terumi pressure, especially with your back to the corner, but that might be my own fault for allowing them to wail on me. I think maybe I might be able to get out without having to DP if it was offline, but offline Terumi players don't exist in my area.
Errol Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 You can just antiair 6B on reaction though. Its not THAT fast and is head attribute. I think it's 25 frames and 6c is 20 frames. Characters without very strong anti-airs have to either ib 6c, or ib 6b. (this isn't that bad). Nu, Ragna, Koko, and some others I guess can just read the 6b and punish it. Interesting post on nu's matchups, thank you.
Dark Ranger88 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 You can just antiair 6B on reaction though. Its not THAT fast and is head attribute. Yeah like Errol said 6B is 25 frames. And if you say you can simply AA if on reaction, then that means almost every character in the game can 5A on reaction as well (since, at that range, a move going active on frame 5 and a move gaining invuln on frame 5 are pretty much the same thing). But are you sure you are really reacting to it and not just reading the Jin player? Because to react to that with a 5A or 6A (anti air), you have to press your button on the 19th frame of 6B's startup. And 19 frames is actually very difficult to react to. Like can you consistently block Jin's 19 frame 6A on reaction?
someonewhodied Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 @SWD: What about Hakumen. I haven't seen any hakumen in extend yet. Not even the nu vs hakumen matchup, Just no hakumen. Yeah like Errol said 6B is 25 frames. And if you say you can simply AA if on reaction, then that means almost every character in the game can 5A on reaction as well (since, at that range, a move going active on frame 5 and a move gaining invuln on frame 5 are pretty much the same thing). But are you sure you are really reacting to it and not just reading the Jin player? Because to react to that with a 5A or 6A (anti air), you have to press your button on the 19th frame of 6B's startup. And 19 frames is actually very difficult to react to. Like can you consistently block Jin's 19 frame 6A on reaction? 25 frames is 25 frames you can react to. Its slow. Even if the blockstun doesnt end till later into its startup you can antiair as long as you have enough frames before the 25 startup.
Tong Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 But are you sure you are really reacting to it and not reading the Jin player? Because to react to that with a 5A or 6A (anti air), you have to press your button on the 19th frame of 6B's startup. And 19 frames is actually very difficult to react to. Like can you consistently block Jin's 19 frame 6A on reaction? This is a very common misconception about reaction, players will always see the amount of startup frames and think "Oh this is slow enough for me, I can beat it with that" without giving consideration to the situation the move itself is used. It's possible to make anyone block very slow and punishable moves if they're used outside the context they're expecting. When you 5A or even 2C's Jin's 6B it means the player was being very predictable with it, like doing 5C> 6B or 2AA> 6B everytime, and yea that's not very hard to counter at all if you're expecting it. Just a slower move's startup doesnt tell us enough if it would be reactable or not if put to good use.
someonewhodied Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 19 frames is easy to react to if you are looking for visual cues or sound effects. If you are looking for when the move actually hits its a lot harder. Also keep in mind that on netplay you are reacting with 5-10 frames less. That makes it significantly harder to actually block or react to things.
Jx31 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Tao and Valk are actually pretty bad vs nu. Since nu has a frame 4 head-invul antiair now, its possible to completely OS valk/tao pressure/blockstrings. Also all the options in neutral too. Could you explain how that OS works?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 Unless your opponent is using Jin's 6B predictably, you're not going to react to it reliably or consistently unless you just got godlike reactions, and considering most of the people in this thread are on netplay, I don't believe that to be true, myself included. A good Jin player will not let you react to it reliably, that's the entire point of 6B. Riddle me this dustloop; how many times have you been in this situation against a decent Jin. "Fuck man, his pressure is pretty strong, I have to be on point" *Jin uses 6B* "*GASP* A slow move? I can react to this by mashing 2A, which I will do right no-COUNTER" "FFFUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!" I'm not saying its impossible to react to it, but you have to know the difference between reading the opponent and reacting to a move; the former takes some degree of Yomi and reads, the latter is an automatic reaction. and ya know, netplay. :V 6A isn't stagger pressure, it's a mixup (kind of wish Terumi had one of those though). And Terumi has the same stagger normals Hazama has. I think the problem is that the standard of what's good and what's bad is so high in BB. On paper, Terumi is a really respectable character. Great, safe footies, strong pressure, and insane burst damage in overdrive to compensate for the lack of rewards he get's off of mix-ups. His meter gain is the best in the game which is nice since he relies on meter management. It's just the fact that we have so many Azraels and Kokonoes and Litchis that are known for dominating some match-ups that Terumi get's seen as lesser since he doesn't do anything that's insanely strong. Where the hell are even getting 6A from? I said 2A and 5A :V
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