Qu_Ane Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 I guess I haven't played enough to appreciate the system, because I really can't find any concern for most of the things outside of hits/specials/supers. When I look at you guys discussing complicated topics, I wonder if you play better than me because you have more resources. Or if it really comes down to footsies/execution/blocking like any other fighting game. Or maybe one is a supplement for the other? I'm just skeptical because I've had plenty of good fights without so much as using up bar. lol Is it a difference in fighting style that determines whether you can use this stuff?
Tong Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 I'm just skeptical because I've had plenty of good fights without so much as using up bar. lol Is it a difference in fighting style that determines whether you can use this stuff? If by bar you mean heat gauge, then if you dont use it at all it means you didnt want to strengthen your offensive/defensive options. Meter usage in CP, for most characters, comes down to: More Damage off confirms (in the form of enhanced combos extensions), making unsafe blocked moves safe and better defensive options (like CA or safer reversals). Meter gain is also scaled in way that you won't get much meter unless you're really dominating the match or in low health, so you have to think wisely and consider the situation before spending meter, but the general rule of thumb is that if you have enough meter to do a combo that will finish an opponent, then you should burn all the meter.
StylisH Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 I guess I haven't played enough to appreciate the system, because I really can't find any concern for most of the things outside of hits/specials/supers. When I look at you guys discussing complicated topics, I wonder if you play better than me because you have more resources. Or if it really comes down to footsies/execution/blocking like any other fighting game. Or maybe one is a supplement for the other? I'm just skeptical because I've had plenty of good fights without so much as using up bar. lol Is it a difference in fighting style that determines whether you can use this stuff? In 1.1 Koko doesn't really have to worry too much about resources. In 2.0 we'll see if you're singing to the same tune. High level play is a lot like a chess match: Move and counter move. Knowledge of your opponents options and knowing the necessary tools to limit them. Not showing all your options on the first go through and bringing your A game on defense. And that's just a fraction of it. It's a LOT more than the rock/paper/scissors that is throw/block/attack.
Airk Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 And well, Mori said it himself. they don't balance characters to be "good", they balance them to be "fun".Yeah, and nothing is as much fun as a character who sucks, right?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Look, we've been through this already. Can we please talk about something productive instead of complaining about the balance for the upteenth time. Can the horse rest in piece instead of continuously beating it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Airk Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 I REALLY want to see the frame data for this version, because it seems like a lot of stuff has changed that's not obvious.I'm on the fence about Tsubaki being good, but if the number of Izayoi matches I see in videos is any indication, at least a VERSION of Tsubaki is good in CP2. :PAlso, sorry, but "balance" discussions flow logically from "design" discussions for me, so if you start talking about how "characters in the game are designed"... ;P
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 I REALLY want to see the frame data for this version, because it seems like a lot of stuff has changed that's not obvious. Also, sorry, but "balance" discussions flow logically from "design" discussions for me, so if you start talking about how "characters in the game are designed"... ;P There's a difference between talking about "How character X functions" to "Character X fucking sucks" :V
mAc Chaos Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Yes, there's a difference between analysis / information and just complaining about it. When you write your post, think of how you might be writing if you were adding to a wiki. Ideally new players going through these threads should learn things from them instead of it just being a sounding board for whoever is on at the time.
Qu_Ane Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 If by bar you mean heat gauge, then if you dont use it at all it means you didnt want to strengthen your offensive/defensive options. Meter usage in CP, for most characters, comes down to: More Damage off confirms (in the form of enhanced combos extensions), making unsafe blocked moves safe and better defensive options (like CA or safer reversals). Meter gain is also scaled in way that you won't get much meter unless you're really dominating the match or in low health, so you have to think wisely and consider the situation before spending meter, but the general rule of thumb is that if you have enough meter to do a combo that will finish an opponent, then you should burn all the meter. Okay, this is a nice concise description here. And I'd have to say yeah, I didn't want to strengthen either. Someone could argue that it'd become much more severe against someone who could use those properties of the game well, but I would argue that you can play while avoiding that gap in strategy. Actually I can't say that. Koko automatically utilizes bar at some point with 236C. But it's not like it "spends" it either. I guess I just found the simplest character to use. In 1.1 Koko doesn't really have to worry too much about resources. In 2.0 we'll see if you're singing to the same tune. High level play is a lot like a chess match: Move and counter move. Knowledge of your opponents options and knowing the necessary tools to limit them. Not showing all your options on the first go through and bringing your A game on defense. And that's just a fraction of it. It's a LOT more than the rock/paper/scissors that is throw/block/attack. lol I've been found out. Move/Counter move to me sounds like footsies. lol So does knowledge of opponents options. I guess the tools to limit them might have to do with advanced stuff like barrier, but I'm just not fully convinced you absolutely need to know everything. I would actually hope that changes with 2.0, to some extent. I know that when the system is utilized it expands your decisions beyond the basics, but I'm just saying it seems like you could very well defend with the basics against those more advanced options, given that you're defensive enough. Is that not true? And these are just honest questions and observations. It's less "debating" from me and more just outspokenly wondering about things.
Dreiko Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 While I do think it is easily possible for a char to be fun and not as good as they used to be (not bad, just not as good) the issue comes with trying to design for that since what is fun varies from person to person and is nebulous as hell so it's not really something worth just gutting a char for. Like, for example, take CS1 and CS2 Ragna, CS2 Ragna was the first time I enjoyed using the character but significantly worse than his CS1 self in practically every way. What I enjoyed about him in CS2 is having different things you had to know with him depending on the situation or he couldn't do much of anything combo/confirm-wise. The limitations he had compared to his cs1 self gave you a more varied set of options that you had to utilize to be successful and that is fun...to me at least. Same case with CP Bang. He's weaker than his CSE self but he has so many more things he can do now that even with FRKZ being only an OD he still ended up being more fun...but a lot of people found him too difficult or too different so they dropped him. For me he was more fun while also being weaker somewhat but I never thought he was fun because he was weaker. He just happened to be fun for me and he would have been fun even if he was not B tier.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 "fun" for me depends entirely if the design allows me to play how I want to, if I can't do what I want to do then my enjoyment drops. I like having options.
Airk Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 There's a difference between talking about "How character X functions" to "Character X fucking sucks" :V You weren't exactly discussing the specifics either, sir. Options, as you say, are important, and curiously, characters who are bad tend to have fewer valid options. Because at the end of the day, how many options you have isn't really the relevant thing; It's how many USEFUL options you have. Additionally, as usual, there are lots of things you can do to a character to make them less 'good' while retaining their options. Anyway, Qu_ane; You are taking an incredibly simplistic view of things. There are all kinds of "moves", "counters" and things to know about your opponent's options that have nothing to do with footsies. Is it possible that you could still beat someone in spite of not using the options allowed by meter? Sure. Is it possible you could beat someone by not using the options allowed by "special moves"? Sure. Does that mean you should ignore them? I think you see the answer to that question. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, if you want to take your game to the highest level, you will need to use all your options. If you are rushing me down, and I counter assault you and use that opportunity to stomp all over you, I'm going to win. Especially if it happens more than one a match. Which it easily can. Assuming two opponents of equal skill, one of who uses and understands counter assault and one who does not, the advantage is clear for the person who does. Same goes for rapid cancels. While your character may be... simplistic (I'm being nice here - I loathe Kokonoe's design) in gameplan, that doesn't mean you can't benefit from, again, Counter assaults. Your superball isn't THAT good a reversal that someone can't bait it and then throw you to avoid getting hit by it.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 You weren't exactly discussing the specifics either, sir. I honestly wasn't being serious with my original statement.
Airk Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 I honestly wasn't being serious with my original statement. Fair enough. Emoticon reading fail. (WTF is :V ?)
Dark Ranger88 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Makoto is rushdown and she isn't designed around it :V This seems to be the problem Arc has. They don't design characters starting from what they need to do their jobs, they design characters based on what they think their drive/schtick should be and then just kinda throw some stuff on there. It's not that these character's drives automatically make them good, but rather that they don't invest the time in making characters who aren't propped up by the drive, good. Hmm...How is Makoto not well designed for rushdown? What tools could/should they give her to boost her rushdown game without breaking her or changing her playstyle completely? Granted her drive isn't specifically designed for rushdown (but it is really fun and satisfying to wail on people with lvl3 punches and supers). She does however have other characteristics that make her a "rushdown character." The biggest thing is her run speed (fastest in the game) combined with a decent poke, which means you can be very aggressive by running at your opponent quickly and forcing them to react rather than think. That's really all you need to control the pace of the match and not give your opponent time to think/breathe (eg. rush them down). The only tools I can think of to make her better at "rushdown" (as opposed to generic buffs like more damage, better mixup) would be to give her ways to deal with zoning/projectiles. Like if she had Akatsuki's Blitz Shield, Fox's Reflector from SSB, or fucking Growler Field. But then again giving Makoto a braindead way to deal with zoning would probably make her instant S Tier imo.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Fair enough. Emoticon reading fail. (WTF is :V ?) Nobody knows, its an anomaly. I ain't no expert on game balancing or nothing, but I don't think rushdown characters are supposed to have as many minus moves as Makoto does lol.
Dark Ranger88 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Nobody knows, its an anomaly. I ain't no expert on game balancing or nothing, but I don't think rushdown characters are supposed to have as many minus moves as Makoto does lol. I'm no expert either. That's why I'm asking for the community's input. +1 2A you say?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Well since she's rushdown, they should focus on her offense I guess. Ways of opening people up, their ability to keep pressure on the opponent, etc etc.
Qu_Ane Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 You weren't exactly discussing the specifics either, sir. Options, as you say, are important, and curiously, characters who are bad tend to have fewer valid options. Because at the end of the day, how many options you have isn't really the relevant thing; It's how many USEFUL options you have. Additionally, as usual, there are lots of things you can do to a character to make them less 'good' while retaining their options. Anyway, Qu_ane; You are taking an incredibly simplistic view of things. There are all kinds of "moves", "counters" and things to know about your opponent's options that have nothing to do with footsies. Is it possible that you could still beat someone in spite of not using the options allowed by meter? Sure. Is it possible you could beat someone by not using the options allowed by "special moves"? Sure. Does that mean you should ignore them? I think you see the answer to that question. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, if you want to take your game to the highest level, you will need to use all your options. If you are rushing me down, and I counter assault you and use that opportunity to stomp all over you, I'm going to win. Especially if it happens more than one a match. Which it easily can. Assuming two opponents of equal skill, one of who uses and understands counter assault and one who does not, the advantage is clear for the person who does. Same goes for rapid cancels. While your character may be... simplistic (I'm being nice here - I loathe Kokonoe's design) in gameplan, that doesn't mean you can't benefit from, again, Counter assaults. Your superball isn't THAT good a reversal that someone can't bait it and then throw you to avoid getting hit by it. That is a very fair response, and I'm grateful you considered what I was saying and without bias (or at least not completely biased XD). And yeah, I'm a pretty simple person. Unfortunately I'm hitting culture shock. I left fighting games before there were even half this stuff and came in at random times when things developed further. I've always dealt with it that same simple way but as I entered competitive play I got suspicious about whether it was the right thing to do. I thought choosing a simple character could curb that well enough (I didn't research her, I just like cat girls and her moves were pretty fun) but I still wanted to hear what others thought about the matter.
Airk Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 I ain't no expert on game balancing or nothing, but I don't think rushdown characters are supposed to have as many minus moves as Makoto does lol. Basically this yes; If you look at a bunch of characters that are nominally NOT "rushdown" (or, more accurately, who have powerful stuff in ADDITION to rushdown) you will find that they have a bunch of ways to either reset pressure with a plus move, or move themselves forward so that barrier doesn't push them out so badly. Makoto has been moving in this direction with cosmic ray and lander blow.. but it kinda all revolves around Asteroid Vision. And you'll note it's taken several games to get there. It doesn't seem like they had a clear idea for what her gameplan was originally supposed to be. This is a common problem for new characters that don't have drives that clearly demand/result in an obvious gameplay strategy. And some characters it feels like they still aren't sure what their gameplan is supposed to be.
Airk Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 That is a very fair response, and I'm grateful you considered what I was saying and without bias (or at least not completely biased XD). And yeah, I'm a pretty simple person. Unfortunately I'm hitting culture shock. I left fighting games before there were even half this stuff and came in at random times when things developed further. I've always dealt with it that same simple way but as I entered competitive play I got suspicious about whether it was the right thing to do. I thought choosing a simple character could curb that well enough (I didn't research her, I just like cat girls and her moves were pretty fun) but I still wanted to hear what others thought about the matter. There's nothing WRONG with playing "simple"; EVERYONE starts by playing simple. And you can win with simple stuff - up to a point. But sooner or later, you're going to think "Gee, I wish I had a better way out of that pressure!" or "Boy, if I had cancelled that move, maybe I wouldn't have taken 5k damage" or the like, and you'll start adding the more advanced mechanics to your game. Of course, picking the absolute nutso top tier character allows you to avoid that for longer, but at the very least, you're going to need to occasionally use Superball as a reversal, since you don't have any other options there, and anyone who knows the matchup can deal with teleport. And a lot of this stuff is going to be way less effective in the next version, so there will be incentive to step up your game.
mAc Chaos Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 It's not about playing "simple." Hakumen is a simple character. But you still would use every tool you can to your advantage. What you're talking about is just wasting your opportunities, because each time you don't use one of those extra options when you could have is giving the opponent a chance to beat you when they might have lost instead. And you can bet that as you climb the ladder of opponent's skill that they'll be using those things against you too, so it's like an arms race. You might be able to win against some people without using all of your options, but that's just selling yourself short for when it really matters against a player that's going to push you to your limit.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Basically this yes; If you look at a bunch of characters that are nominally NOT "rushdown" (or, more accurately, who have powerful stuff in ADDITION to rushdown) you will find that they have a bunch of ways to either reset pressure with a plus move, or move themselves forward so that barrier doesn't push them out so badly. Makoto has been moving in this direction with cosmic ray and lander blow.. but it kinda all revolves around Asteroid Vision. And you'll note it's taken several games to get there. It doesn't seem like they had a clear idea for what her gameplan was originally supposed to be. This is a common problem for new characters that don't have drives that clearly demand/result in an obvious gameplay strategy. And some characters it feels like they still aren't sure what their gameplan is supposed to be. What if they changed the inputs on Cosmic Ray and Lander blow?
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