LaowPing Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 So what does the tier list look like right now? (Partially trying to stop this from turning into the Makoto discussion page).
Fusionist Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 I feel like there's an inherent problem with balancing this game in the fact that some gimmicks are straight up stronger than others. The game is more balanced when characters' gimmicks are toned down but it becomes less "fun". If the gimmicks remain strong, then there is a wider gap between the higher tiers and the lower tiers. Generally speaking. You can use CSEX as a counterargument, but now we have SMP, a different barrier system and a much faster game to consider. So what does the tier list look like right now? (Partially trying to stop this from turning into the Makoto discussion page). I would try to analyze what I've seen and give you my personal opinion, but it's really hard to say. A lot of characters look like A-tier material. I just know that Ragna, Jin and Nu have been previously discussed as the strongest in this game, but I'm seeing plenty of characters besides them winning.
Airk Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 I feel like there's an inherent problem with balancing this game in the fact that some gimmicks are straight up stronger than others. The game is more balanced when characters' gimmicks are toned down but it becomes less "fun". If the gimmicks remain strong, then there is a wider gap between the higher tiers and the lower tiers. Generally speaking. You can use CSEX as a counterargument, but now we have SMP, a different barrier system and a much faster game to consider. I would try to analyze what I've seen and give you my personal opinion, but it's really hard to say. A lot of characters look like A-tier material. I just know that Ragna, Jin and Nu have been previously discussed as the strongest in this game, but I'm seeing plenty of characters besides them winning. I think this is obviously incorrect. When you have characters like Ragna, Jin and Bang running towards "high tier" in various games, it's obvious that the power of your "gimmick" is only part of your character. If a character has a weak gimmick, like, say, a button that requires precise magic timing, or a gauge they have to stop doing anything else to fill up, you just need to give them better non-gimmick tools. Or make their gimmick better in some way. It's really not that complicated. We've been over this ground dozens of times. The problem simply seems to be that Arc Sys doesn't do this. At least, not deliberately. Sometimes characters with a weak gimmick (I mean, c'mon, Soul Eater is a crap gimmick. It gives Ragna like an extra 1k health each round, at best.) end up top tier (CS2 Makoto says hi, even though her gimmick has only gotten BETTER since then.) and sometimes they suck (CS1 Tsubaki was hilariously bad). Having a good 'core gimmick' insulates you a little bit against stupid changes to other things, but it's not proof against being low tier either (CS1 Rachel says hi. And maybe CP2 Tao?). Tier list actually mostly seems to be a big blob around A and B tier for once. Except for Nu, who is in WTFDUMB tier. Also, I disagree with Tong - I think this game has PLENTY of system mechanics. It has pretty much the same number that GG does, and that's a LOT, IMHO. Adding more just makes the game increasingly problematic for new players while adding only minimal depth for experienced ones.
Ried Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Is Nu really considered to be that far out in front now? I thought players have been saying she's just strong, not the god more recently. Dunno though, it's still not even out on console yet. As far as mechanics go; yeah, I wouldn't think throwing more junk into the pot is the answer to anything other than making the game less approachable, which has always been an issue for the genre at large.
Dawn of Musou Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25849482 Found this little gem. Still wondering what happened.
LaowPing Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 I feel like there's an inherent problem with balancing this game in the fact that some gimmicks are straight up stronger than others. The game is more balanced when characters' gimmicks are toned down but it becomes less "fun". If the gimmicks remain strong, then there is a wider gap between the higher tiers and the lower tiers. Generally speaking. You can use CSEX as a counterargument, but now we have SMP, a different barrier system and a much faster game to consider. That's kind of the marvel problem. The game is crazy and completely unfair at times but it's one of the most hype games at every tournament. The more you add into a game, the crazier it gets. It's a double edged sword. Each mechanic brings more depth but knew problems along with it. Same thing with gimmicks. A new gimmick can make a character fun and unique but also extremely annoying. How do you balance something that's not in most fighting games? How often do we see Hazamas and Rachaels? It takes time to fix. http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25849482 Found this little gem. Still wondering what happened. Hurtboxes bro. They extend when you use an attack. Her's might be a little weird. And that reminds me, how strong is izayoi now? I already hate the character due to match-up inexperience and then she becomes more common. At least SKD will be happy.
Tong Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 If a character has a weak gimmick, like, say, a button that requires precise magic timing, or a gauge they have to stop doing anything else to fill up, you just need to give them better non-gimmick tools. Or make their gimmick better in some way. It's really not that complicated. We've been over this ground dozens of times. The problem simply seems to be that Arc Sys doesn't do this. At least, not deliberately. Sometimes characters with a weak gimmick (I mean, c'mon, Soul Eater is a crap gimmick. It gives Ragna like an extra 1k health each round, at best.) end up top tier (CS2 Makoto says hi, even though her gimmick has only gotten BETTER since then.) and sometimes they suck (CS1 Tsubaki was hilariously bad). Having a good 'core gimmick' insulates you a little bit against stupid changes to other things, but it's not proof against being low tier either (CS1 Rachel says hi. And maybe CP2 Tao?). Ok, what do you define as "gimmick" in your context? Because it has a completely differenty meaning to me and most players. A gimmick, for me and most players, is a synonym for Shenanigan which is basically a "trick" that you won't see often. When someone says "Tager is a gimmicky" character, it means he's a character full of these little tricks. In BlazBlue they may include Tech Traps, Resets or an unconventional form of mixup that is really hard to predict and beat at first. These things are known as gimmicks, and you will hear it alot being used here around this context, of a trick. That's why I was really confused when you said "Soul Eater is a crap gimmick", because it's not a gimmick (even though there are some that involves the use of Soul Eater). So I'll assume that by "gimmick" you meant either the Drive mechanic or a character's special gauge. But even then, are they the only thing responsible for determining which character is strong or weak in BlazBlue, like your post says? How is a strong character in BlazBlue like, what do they have the weaker dont? When you understand that you will see that the game (either because of it's systems or mechanics or because how it's designed) favors characters that have certain attributes (Like good damage (either off random confirms or combos), good oki, good ways to enforce pressure, good mobility, good normals etc), and that's where you will notice that the weaker characters either dont have enough of those attributes nor are good enough in one. Why was CS1 Tsubaki a bad character? Simply put, because she didnt have enough of those good attributes normally and had to depend heavily on her charge gauge to be just good at some of them. But what's the point of that if characters like Ragna had already them from start and never needed to rely on meter? CS1 Ragna does everything CS1 Tsubaki does without needing to rely on a Drive mechanic. The CS1 tops were either very good at dealing damage, enforcing pressure/oki or having better tools in general. Do mechanics or systems matter in these cases? Of course they do, but if they benefit the strongest character then they're poorly implemented because they're here to make life easier for all characters, even the weakest ones. I believe that CPEX has accomplished a good balance by simplifying rather than giving every character a point they excel, which is what GG has been doing for years with (apparent) success. The result is the same? Yes, but you end up with a more simple game, for better or worse.
Dreiko Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Every time a char has been really good it has either been because of their normals being amazing or because of their overall mechanics being super strong in some way. (and with 1.0 Kokonoe and her jB/6A>j2C etc. normals you had both of those things combined thus people be mad) Like, cs2 Makoto wasn't good cause of her drive. It's all her normals being amazing and comboing together really well. Same for CS1 Bang, I remember this one tourney that Tokido came and won without ONCE using the D button, all cause Bang normals were CS1 Bang normals. Extend was more "boring" but it was in THAT game that the top tier chars were more based on their drive being super good (Valk/Hazama, though Hazama has always been nuts) so there's really no connection between more or less drive-intensive char design leading to more fun/interesting match outcomes. I mean, some of the chars who revolve around their drive are the most boring, one trick pony chars ever like Amane and Arakune and both of those are not very strong because the game is evolving in such a way that you need to have more than just one thing that you do while sucking at everything else. You need to be able to have one really good thing while still being decent beyond a certain level at other things or your one thing needs to be like Valk where your opponent doesn't get to play the game at all so your other weaknesses don't come into play. And well...the thing is we already have Valk so making the rest of the weak chars like him is not the way to make the game more fun or interesting by any definition. They need new ways of achieving that. I honestly don't know what they can do with Amane at this point while Arakune sinks or floats based on the broken-ness of his bugs which I guess is fair since he's that type of char. Oh and I don't get what's hype about marvel. It's all unreactable mixups that lead into combos which are safe even if blocked due to super bars/assists making them so. I mean if you don't know fighitng games it's very flashy and stuff but the lack of risk in most approaches makes the drama of a high risk high reward approach...very non-dramatic to me lol. Everything is ultimate reward no risk or so it feels like to watch and when it's all like that then it becomes boring.
TD Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Amane is certainly not boring, and I wouldn't consider him a one trick pony either. He's supposed to be, supposed to "win using the drill", but since the idea is extremely gimmicky, he has to play like a movement character with range. His drill turns him into a completely different character. A good one.
Dreiko Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Amane is certainly not boring, and I wouldn't consider him a one trick pony either. He's supposed to be, supposed to "win using the drill", but since the idea is extremely gimmicky, he has to play like a movement character with range. His drill turns him into a completely different character. A good one. That's what I mean, the idea behind the char creation is so boring that people have to try and do well or make him fun DESPITE it which is a process with too many negatives inherently juxtaposed on it from the first second of using the character. You shouldn't have to make the character fun despite the designer's best efforts but rather, through them. I think the enjoyment we experience when we see good Amane comes by the contrast of how boring the char is and how interesting the inventive players managed to make him despite that which is not a good situation, despite the end result of Amane being fun to watch. It still is the reason why he's bad.
SoWL Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 "Boring" is as subjective as "Fun", so I wouldn't use it to describe Amane's core design. If you're looking for an antonym for "Interesting", as in "Exciting, holding the attention", it's "Dull", and I wouldn't call Amane's design dull, either. Saying that he "Only wins through chip" trivializes a lot of its aspects, and even then, how many characters in fighting games ever have that at their core? He still has his C normals and hops on top of that, which is more than characters like Ragna or Jin can ever hope for in terms of interesting mechanics.
Airk Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 <stuff> Sorry. I was using it as a synonym for "drive" because BlackYakuza said "You make a game that centers around the gimmicks of characters and then you nerf those gimmicks to hell and back." - and I took that to be him using "gimmick" as a synonym for "drive" because that's what BB characters are built around.Otherwise, it sounds like you agree with me?Edit: Actually, it sounds like EVERYONE agrees with me? Who ARE you people and what site am I on?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Ragna & Jin are more consistent though. It really just comes down to what you want out of the game; do you want your character to be good and excel in what they do or do you just want be able to play how you wanna play with their drive? That said, I think when we get both, we'll have a game worth loving, unless that's happened already. Only came into the series with CSEX. Sorry. I was using it as a synonym for "drive" because BlackYakuza said "You make a game that centers around the gimmicks of characters and then you nerf those gimmicks to hell and back." - and I took that to be him using "gimmick" as a synonym for "drive" because that's what BB characters are built around. Otherwise, it sounds like you agree with me? Well I was being my usual facetious self, but the point I was getting at is pretty much what Tong said in his last paragraph. CPEX is pretty balanced and gives all of the characters extremely needed buffs to the point where the characters that were trash before and now actually viable. This comes at the expense of removing options from the characters that made them "interesting" and comes off as "boring" to people.(i.e. not being able to use 6C>6D freeze resets in the corner with Jin anymore).
o Nereus o Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Ragna & Jin are more consistent though. It really just comes down to what you want out of the game; do you want your character to be good and excel in what they do or do you just want be able to play how you wanna play with their drive? That said, I think when we get both, we'll have a game worth loving, unless that's happened already. Only came into the series with CSEX. Well I was being my usual facetious self, but the point I was getting at is pretty much what Tong said in his last paragraph. CPEX is pretty balanced and gives all of the characters extremely needed buffs to the point where the characters that were trash before and now actually viable. This comes at the expense of removing options from the characters that made them "interesting" and comes off as "boring" to people.(i.e. not being able to use 6C>6D freeze resets in the corner with Jin anymore). ehhh... not all characters. Terumi is pretty much screwed because obviously a character that was already ok... needed to be nerf to the point where he's even more horrid lol
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 ehhh... not all characters. Terumi is pretty much screwed because obviously a character that was already ok... needed to be nerf to the point where he's even more horrid lol Terumi's a lost cause, he's too far gone.... Seriously, what is even the deal with that character. Why does he suck so much lol.
Fame96 Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 ehhh... not all characters. Terumi is pretty much screwed because obviously a character that was already ok... needed to be nerf to the point where he's even more horrid lol To be honest i really need to get the game in order to get my final word on terumi. I see potential but i really need to get my hands on it.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 The fact that he's not being played much could be an indicator of how he might be.
Dawn of Musou Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Tbh I've seen more footage of him now than before in 1.1. Not sure why considering he's worse than before.
heavymetalmixer Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Tbh I've seen more footage of him now than before in 1.1. Not sure why considering he's worse than before. Less heat gain, less damage, worse mixup.
Tong Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Sorry. I was using it as a synonym for "drive" because BlackYakuza said "You make a game that centers around the gimmicks of characters and then you nerf those gimmicks to hell and back." - and I took that to be him using "gimmick" as a synonym for "drive" because that's what BB characters are built around. Characters are built around their Drives? That may be true for some characters, like Rachel who is by far the most well designed character in BlazBlue, but for most? It's nothing more than an extra attack set with an added effect or attribute associated to it. For others they aren't even needed for their gameplan, Dreiko gave us the CS1 Bang as an example but it's true for most of his versions. Hakumen is another example of character than can be strong without even needing his Drive, if he really was designed around his Drive I'm sure his counters would be strong enough to change his gameplay completely. But it's very hard to balance a Drive like that, you can either end up with a very strong tool, that could literally destroy other characters' gameplan, or a bad tool that has very restricted uses. Which is why ASW has decided to go for a safer compromise: "You know what screw the counters let's give this guy good normals, nice damage etc, at least this way he has something to fight back in case the nerfed counters we implemented dont help at all". And this is why I dislike thinking of Drives whenever I want to evaluate a character's performance, Drives just make no sense most of the time because they are either the core of a character, just an additional movelist or have a small role for the character. It feels so subjective that I can perfectly name GG characters' "Drives", even though they dont have any. So yea, avoid thinking about character in terms of "Drives" and think more about their strengths, weaknesses and how effective their gameplan is in the context of the game. It's easier and gives you a better picture of ANY game thinking that way. Otherwise, it sounds like you agree with me? I didnt agree with you because having a "good core gimmick (your words)" isnt part of the equation that results in character strength/weakness.
StylisH Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Less heat gain, less damage, worse mixup. He had mixup? News to me
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 I'm still a bit salty they keep nerfing Zanshin lol. Despite the nerfs, I could accept what they gave him in 1.0-1.1 as a fair compromise but then they remove that as well. You may as well just leave his only counter as Yukikaze and call it a day. That said, proration buffs and the 4C buff are welcome, so I can't complain too much. He's not exceptionally strong anymore, but he's still viable at least. So yea, overall as a character he functions perfectly fine despite his "gimmick" not being that strong anymore.
Airk Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 I didnt agree with you because having a "good core gimmick (your words)" isnt part of the equation that results in character strength/weakness.Uh. That doesn't make any sense. You really think that, say, Valk's drive has NOTHING to do with his balance? or Carl's? C'mon. It's not always the PRIMARY part, but the whole gist of my point is that you have to look at the whole character, not any given part, so the drive is neither the only thing that defines the character, nor is it irrelevant.
Fame96 Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Less heat gain, less damage, worse mixup. Less damage and mixup i'll give you but i really need my hands on the game to judge the heat gain. I just don't buy that right now.
Tong Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 It's not always the PRIMARY part, but the whole gist of my point is that you have to look at the whole character, not any given part, so the drive is neither the only thing that defines the character, nor is it irrelevant. Really? I thought your point was: Having a good 'core gimmick' insulates you a little bit against stupid changes to other things, but it's not proof against being low tier either And in my interpretation (and probably the others') is that you said: "Having a good Drive (what is a 'good' Drive?) protects characters against stupid changes (whatever you mean by that, what's stupid?) to other things (what other things?), but sometimes they can become a weaker character". Now, this sounds like you were focused too much on the Drives to evaluate how a characters performs on each game, which led me to my post explaning that wasnt the case at all. You really think that, say, Valk's drive has NOTHING to do with his balance? or Carl's? C'mon. As I said in my post, certain characters get better mileage out of their Drives, but also that wasnt always the case. Read carefully again. If we're really on the same page here (or even book), then be more objective (give good examples) and less ambiguous (avoid subjective terms like "stupid", "things", improper terminology etc). It will be much more easier to understand what you're trying to say
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