OmnixTSC

This is correct :P Don't forget that some of the Randomizer combos can inflict paralysis as well. Movement options are shutdown, they can't tech grabs, AND they have negative penalty inflicted on them in a situation where Liz can probably safe jump them? I think that's pretty BS, honestly. I'm loving every second of it, too. I thought fear was frightening (huehue) enough in the last game (people I play regularly will tell you just how much they hate it), but it seems like it's even more of a threat since we can combine that with negative penalty. It might end up being completely ridiculous in some situations. I'm kinda content with being able to do some damage and cheese people with setups if you put in some EVs. Thanks for all of the hard work, you two. I'm too lazy to go through with this since I have enough character related content I have to deal with as is ;-;

Eh, it happens. That's like me not being bothered by the Mitsuru MU (and actually enjoying it now) even though I admit that it's really bad. This is soley b/c of the people I play and talk to along with my own personal perception of things. Still saddened by this change. Slightly more risk involved with using 5D in some situations now. I guess with having to be closer to people with it, there will be a few scenarios where they have less time to react to it? Meh. If we can find a way to do combos with Randomizer, then sure. Otherwise, no dice. The risk of messing up and walking into the burst is enough of a reason to not try this. It's just to style from what I can tell. I thought it was kinda funny, albeit a bit sad, that the Liz was playing as if he hopped on a P4U cab. He wasn't even doing basic P4U2 Liz stuff...Well, he seemed to have a firm grasp of P4U Liz, so maybe he'll come around Edit: I was talking about the first Liz we see in the video with the above comment. Color #2 Liz is actually really solid and knows P4U2 routes (though he/she seems to press a lot of buttons lol).

Considering you can easily deal with SLab's 8C and to a lesser extent 2C by using Liz's 2B and still be safe all while punishing the persona call, I don't really see either option giving Liz a hard time. Sure, we can't use Maragi much in this MU without paying attention to what the SLab is doing, but that goes for pretty much all of our MUs. Both characters lose general neutral options when the other is doing stuff, but they can trade persona hits consistently enough to where neutral doesn't seem to bother either character at the end of the day. The funny thing is that you don't even need that if you bait one DP from her. SLab just straight up dies at that point if she has no burst. D Garu punish is the best punish, especially on a character where the combo takes next to no effort (thank you 236D[2] loops)

double post RIP never saw

You don't feel the SLab MU is arguable either way? I always felt it was a pretty fair MU outside of when either character derped the other b/c of setplay and/or damage. This is why I pointed out that I'd be ranting instead of having an actual discussion on my thoughts of various things. It was more of me venting my sadness than me being entirely serious about everything (part of the reason I spoiler tagged it). I do understand why people reach the conclusions they do in any given situation, but that doesn't mean I'm not saddened by them on occasion or very understanding of them on others. I was having one of those 'God dang it, FGC' moments and just ended up posting it in the Liz threads b/c I was here I just defaulted to calling people 'bad' so I didn't have to spend time thinking about their actual faults or weaknesses. That is exceptionally silly on my part, but this is the first time I've openly called people bad, so...DL...you're bad. Very bad...The 'beyond any hopes of salvation' kinda bad. You should feel bad. All of you!

Okay, so...what characters do you guys actually think give Liz trouble in P4U and/or P4U2? Now I'm curious. Liz only had trouble against 4 characters in P4A last I checked: Teddie, Yosuke, Narukami, and of course Mitsuru. Sure, the Chie MU isn't in Liz's favor, but it's close enough to where we don't have to readily talk about it. Everything else is pretty even, maybe some 4.5-5.5s on one side or the other depending on who you ask. I'm going to start ranting here, b/c DL in general has been bothering me more and more lately (more along the lines of confusion than actual aggravation). So...have fun reading if you click the spoiler, Lizzies!

If you need help with this, be sure to let us know a day in advance at the least. I'm sure this could help motivate some people to play.

I was secretly working on one that I'd link here when I finished enough of it, but you seem to have it covered! I'll still link the pastebin for future reference since it'll be organized and everything: BBCP 1.1 Makoto Combo Notes Edit: I'll be using Evernote instead of pastebin now. Here's the link to where my 1.1 combo notes will be: BBCP 1.1 Makoto Combo Notes

So when are we going to see the influx of combo notes and stuff now that Makoto is slightly better?

I might hop in this depending on how I feel after Token's tourney. I'll let you know later

Hmm, I don't remember this. Could have been a thing, though. 2D > Orb Oki is going to have to be our ender for some combos from the looks of it. It's basically the same thing as 5D > Orb Oki.

A lot of those combos are very practical. We get FC's rather easily b/c of 2C and throw, the former of which I feel has some more applications combo-wise that we haven't seen yet. Something can be practical without it being optimal, which is made pretty obvious in the video. The meter usage on some of these isn't too bad and they get the job done (sizable damage + oki). I'm just not sure which combos I'd throw into a pastebin for optimization when I noticed that a few things might be possible to extend combo length or increase damage in a number of the combos, even if only for a small bonus. I didn't see anything wrong with the video itself outside of the organization of the combos being really meh. That's probably my only legitimate complaint. Other than that, Damosu did a great job labbing stuff. Gave us a lot of content to work with.

In response to this in the video thread: I can't tell what's optimal resource and damage-wise from this outside of the hama combos (which use all of our meter, lulz). I'm just going to wait until the game hits consoles. I was looking at the video and I kept getting the feeling that something is just missing from a number of these as far as optimization goes. I could be wrong, but that's just what it felt like. When the game hits consoles, I'll get with some players and see what we can optimize. Bace will probably find a lot.

I never liked the non-combo variants of Hama (gimmicky resets), which is what I saw used the most. It's probably why I never really experimented with them. Now that I can do the ones that use Hama mid-combo, it's a lot more interesting for me. A bit off-topic: would you guys like me to start recording and uploading more of my online matches? It would give you guys some food for thought so you can work on things that you need to address with your Liz play in general and I can get critiques that way

I'm going to attempt to explore Hama combos in P4U2 once it hits consoles. I'm finally starting to use them in P4U, so now I'm really interested in them.

So when are we going to go back to talking about our netplay related pet peeves? I'll start you guys off One of the things that really bothers me when I'm netplaying is when I get kicked from a room for a very silly reason such as being a rank higher than a person or having more matches than them. Especially when the connection to the room is so smooth

I don't mind it whiffing. 5A already has enough uses for me personally and making people respect your air unblockable 5A with barrier blocking can go a long way. Or they can just not respect it and get OD'd off of a 5A starter

I don't like this statement because it generalizes a player's ability to explore a character's options. There are many instances among players of them actually not progressing or growing as they should because of the fact that they play a higher tiered character. There is a go-to option or set of options that the character may have access to that doesn't force a player to explore the rest of that character's toolset. As such, the player may develop a tendency to rely heavily on these options without having a good understanding of the character. There are also times where it's harder for an individual to identity his or her faults when a tool makes things easier for them. The exact opposite of what I listed above can also happen, but the most important thing to note is the fact that these habits aren't exclusive to any tiers. You can draw a parallel to the above with players that are using a lower tiered character, as they may not be able to readily identity their own flaws as they're quick to look at the tools their character of choice doesn't have before stopping to figure out how to use what they do have at their disposal. At the end of the day, improvement will depend solely on the player and not the character. The character a person chooses having more options than another person's character won't make them a better player. The only thing this gives them is a stronger toolset to compete and work with. Whether this makes a difference or not will depend on a number of factors in addition to the individual strength of the characters.

I see nothing wrong with any of this. I think you all just need to ascend to a higher plane and see what I do. Step it up, my cute little kouhais!

We gotta give them the benefit of the doubt, though. At least that much is fair to them

I meant more along the lines of, "There is no footage to see her get bopped." We don't have anything for either side of the spectrum. Liz just isn't there, lol I don't care if these Liz players lose. They can all go out 0-2 for all I care (or 0-1 if it's single elim). I just want them to show that they're competent players. If they know their stuff, play on point, and still end up losing...there is literally nothing else I can ask of them. I'd just pat them on the back and say, "You'll get 'em next time!"

Is that because you watched for his matches the most? huehue I have seen Junpei win in the majority of footage I've watched of him, to be honest. It's just that when he lost...he got rocked This is more than I can say for Liz.

This isn't even specific to those characters. That's literally how the game is on netplay. You can IB things all day (if you're fortunate enough to even get that) and still not punish the opponent regardless of the character you're fighting. You can input a reversal, a counter assault, or even a 5A/2A during their telegraphed or patterned mixup/pressure and be stuck on defense all day long...well, that is until you get hit (which will happen). I really just don't like this game on netplay at times. I'd say "3 or 4 bars and nothing else" if not for the fact that even 3 bars chug along at times and 4s are sometimes nonexistent.

I hate to be "that guy," but...none of the Liz players have more than 700 PSR...that should tell you something depending on what area they all came from. PSR is important over there, though it's not everything. Be optimistic...just not absurdly so. Not saying that any of you are being absurd about your expectations, though. Edit: Junpei is fine post-patch. Players for him just aren't there yet (outside of Gao).

Having only one Yukari present is killing me. I'm losing brain cells over this. My main girl has 3 reps and my almost main girl has 1? Come oooooooooon