Osuna

This has some interesting implications for a lot of ticks. Also lol, the 6A changes took away the ability to 720 tick, take that everyone who thought it they were gaining the tick instead.

I like how the argument for not being negative is a negative comment.

I can't test right now, but there was a pretty popular clip of some tager demonstrating 5A VC 720. Edit: Also why are you trying that? 6A isn't jump cancelable, just buffer the 720 and super cancel it late.

I want to clarify on the doube gadget and the VC 720 point. The gadget needs to start while they are still recovering from the first gadget so the game thinks they are still being comboed. So you're better off buffering it as a reversal. The 720 has only a stupid short window of something like 11 frames into voltech charge (before there is even auto guard) so it is wise to have as much of the motion done by the time you start the charge. I usually hit the button at around 412369D874123698Cish

People keep thinking tager would be much better with a dash, but they forget that if we Did have a dash it wouldn't be a very good one. It'd be a grappler's dash before considering the nerfing we would take in exchange because they don't want tager to be good.

Whoa you can do that kind of damage off air to air J.C? I was just doing J.C J.2C 2B 2C etc. For like 3.2k

Which reminds me. Does anyone actually know the good 6B combos or do we need a 6B combo contest? The fatal doesn't happen often, but I really should capitalize on everything I can.

Hey can we get around to fixing the 360 combo section?

Ok, that's where I got confused you see when I said it is "their" choice I was referring to anyone who was negatively impacted by the negativity. lol, That context made it really really different. I was taking about responsibility not autonomy. People aren't directly harmed by negativity until they make a decision which places the responsibility on them. If someone gets depressed by factual information presented in a negative light that's because they think they should be. If the requirement for them is something totally irrational, then you can't hold anyone responsible for triggering it. I for one would rather be depressed than lied to. I've seen tons of inaccurate information about how good Tager is and other forms of irrational optimism, so I don't particularly feel that the problem is really be linked to negativity beyond speculation that it wouldn't be the same or worse if the mood was positive. I would also go as far as to say that you cannot be completely honest about Tager without more negativity than any other character. So if you Do eliminate the negativity there will still be false information and less factual information, or at least less honest information. So I propose rather than throwing out possible good things and leaving some bad things by focusing on negativity, we focus on quality of information. I think that tier list looks familiar, is it that one that got linked to in a google docs spread sheet forever ago?

Actually I don't think I get what you mean in that MLK analogy. It IS their choice to shoot martin luther king, or are you saying it was the fault of Everyone Else who didn't like him? Are you saying it wasn't really that man's fault that he murdered someone? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the choice in analogy accidentally could go too many ways. I don't think you mean to say it is the fault of the 8 Alabama clergymen that Martin Luther King was shot because of their disapproval of his protests. You speak in broad terms, of how a community might be dragged down. How? How might this happen if not through individuals doing what they think they should do? If the deciding factor is the prevailing mood, then that's what it is. I would certainly argue with anyone who gave bad reasons or had inaccurate information. I say If depressed people are saying inaccurate things, correct them. We're here to share information If happy people are saying inaccurate things, correct them. We're here to share information. We should definitely strive for accurate information, but one could understand Tager's position entirely and still drop him or be upset about it. The situation you articulate, where sad people say sad and inaccurate things has a way bigger problem than the one you take exception to. I would go as far as to say there is only one problem.

Of course, what I'm contending with is that if you ignore damage, which is meaningless outside of the context of other characters, when you compare the other stats I still think CT tager isn't the best. Not that he doesn't have his lopsided charm.

I don't think having insane damage in a game where a significant chunk of the cast had insaner damage makes a character good. I disagree that CT tager was the best because quality of damage is always relative and more things have improved since then than gotten worse in CS1 if not 2. Though I think he had a level 0 5A in CT, am I making that up?

If a person is convinced they can't be good, you can disagree and argue with them. If they irrationally think they wouldn't get anywhere even if they tried no matter what anyone says then that's on them. People have bad feelings, that's just a fact. Telling people to not be negative is telling them to not express those feelings and ideas. You can't just tell someone to be happy, so you just have to deal with it when people aren't happy. I don't know how you can expect to make people be happy. It isn't a choice, it's a combination of beliefs (both rational and irrational) processing external stimuli. The only way you can stop that is to harass them into silence not sharing what they think, which is just mean. Being negative doesn't do much, that's because it isn't really content. It is a trait of something said. The feeling it gives can do bad things, but so can optimism and any other attitude if you aren't going to look very deeply into the real content. It's like you're complaining that complaining makes unreasonable people do unreasonable things.

I personally think that if someone doesn't want to get good with tager that it is his business. I don't feel responsible if by not liking something someone else decides they aren't cut out for high level blazblue. I also don't think you can attribute him being hindered to someone else being negative. It's a personal decision, even if it would improve the rate of people getting serious I don't think censoring the way people actually feel is the way to go. If the person would decide not to get serious on the condition that the general consensus is that he wouldn't do well even if he did get serious, then lying to him and pretend no one thinks that is deceiving him to get what you want. I most certainly would disagree with his criteria, but I won't lie to him to make him get serious. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care if anyone is being negative as long as they are being honest. As long as someone is being honest I can learn from them, talk with them and disagree with them if that's the case. I think it bothers you more than anyone else, so unless someone wants to correct me, I'd appreciate if you just let people who feel negative express themselves. I know you don't like it, but I don't think it is anyone's business but theirs. Of course disagree as much as you like with their reasons, but you can't argue over what they feel.

I never said otherwise. The damage nerf is pretty frustrating on top of it all, but I'm grateful for the increased combo potential on standing opponents. By not knowing how to play that game at all I mean, I didn't know what his good normals were. Or what they look like. or what anyone else's look like. I didn't know any match up infomation, I also didn't know any of his AE changes.

I have to concede that some of it is just the way grapplers work. They aren't very intuitive to fight against, but some of the changes they made make me wonder. Like buffing 360B, which despite being lots of fun for me is a bigger problem for new players than older ones. The 6A changes are unintuitive too, and certainly end up causing a lot more trouble for people getting into the game that for others. I'm kinda curious about the logic behind it. EDIT:For context's sake this post was started before Ve's. Also since I'm editing I shall add an example. My Zangief will occasionally give Street fighter players trouble. I have No idea how to play that game.

Dacid, I know you feel good about Tager, and he turned he's certainly not CT Tager, even if he didn't get any of the things you and I were hoping for last time we talked. But! people are allowed to be upset even if you aren't. True that ASW has been lovely about being supportive of the competitive scene, but gimping Tager in competitive play to favor casual players is what we all seem to agree happened and people can condemn the action without making it into a typical one. He received other nerfs that negatively impacted his match ups that people could rightfully be upset about in the context that it is part of the reason he's in his own tier. The general consensus is that it is intentional too, to make things easier for newer players. The part that personally pisses me off is that they didn't even do a very good job of that. They just made it so Tager Only pisses off people who aren't deep into the game yet, which further drives me crazy because a lot of Tager players become satisfied with that and end up crappy/hyper gimmicky players. I still play Tager sincerely even though I don't have a local scene or very much time to play anymore. Complaining hasn't impeded me, and if it does impede someone that's their business and their choice. It isn't even a particularly bad choice to make if you think about it. Getting upset at people for being upset is also a good way to die young. Actually I don't like that hyperbole. Some of us aren't born healthy.

Is this really all the Tager forum has to offer here?

Ah my bad. I misread your intent. Also hey! Just because I'm bitter and make a noise when I get up doesn't make me an old man!

The cool thing about jump barrier is that you Can look for the air throw since it's often the only thing they can do to you in that situation that does damage. It's totally reasonable to tech it on reaction when it's the only thing you have to look for. Also I don't endorse 5D being used that way on the grounds that, even though it might score some points for being weird, 5D is 50 frames long, and even at max distance for 236D it only needs to react within 24 frames of the start of the move, so in the long run it's really not a legitimate strategy. I really want people to keep their terms straight too when it comes to things related to punishes, because that line there is confused and theoretically confusing. 236D cannot be 360A'd. After blocking a 236D you can 360A 5A's (I see 5B's too) without IB, you can 360B on IB. Essentially you get gadget finger mix up minus 5A, which is nothing like being able to 360A 236D. I know we explained the same thing, but I think the differences are worthwhile.

Fixed People need to not assume their opponent sucks when talking about match ups.

No you did not.

The issue isn't that it was online in this case. The issue is that neither of you knew the match up. I'm not particularly excited by wins (especially my own) that are gained through my opponent being weak in the match up. I used to spend a lot of time messaging strangers on how to beat Tager.

I think people need to remember that our character sucks and that we get more than a few wins from lack of match up expertise from our opponents. There is no match up we just win, nothing even Close to that. Our character isn't good. It isn't like 'If we just play right we can kick everyone's ass', it is 'if we play right we'll still win less often than if we were playing right as a different character' I feel like a lot of people have the mistaken impression that Tager can be great in the right hands. Amazing for sure, awesome too, incredible on occasion, but at the end of the day he's a bad character.

I think the solution is to buff 360A, since buffing 360B to the point where it is good on defense would take a lot of work and risk making 360A obsolete.