dragontamer

I do believe 5A 5A 5A is still solid actually... but yeah... Oh, and I think 6A -> 5C is a solid string even on IB. Lol. I totally see those all the time in high level Noel play. </sarcasm> BTW: no need to IB 720 when you can just IB Sledge after 5B. :-( Almost true. Sledge loses to d.5B as well. Under the right setups... d.6C -> d.6B needs to be instant-blocked if Tager wants to punish with 360A or 720C actually, but d.6C is very easy to instant block and you can probably react to it with a Sledge or something at higher levels of play. Under those ideal conditions, d.6C -> d.6A will counter-hit 360A as well. d.5B is fast as hell however, so thats what I use to punish sledge happy tagers. d.5B -> d.6A -> d.6C -> combo is easy, but you need 3 chain revolvers left. Pretty much this. This is a defensive game for both Noel and Tager, but Tager has the advantage here. 360A and Sledge go through all of Noel's stuff, so Noel has to take a higher risk to do mediocre damage than Tager.

Delaying 5B? There are easier and more consistent options. You have so many attacks to choose from. Use d.5A to change the rhythm of d.5B sometimes (both are airtight). Use d.6B for the overhead (hole on instant-block, airtight on normal-block). Use d.6D for the low (hole on normal block). Use d.2D for a backdash beater (its meaty as hell, and has a slight hole). The vast majority of good players will (attempt to) punish d.6C on block. If you do d.6C -> d.5A -> Overhead / Low, they'll send you hatemail for their DPs not working. :-) With almost no hitstop, d.5A is a good rhythm changer out of these things.

I consider Tager using Voltic Charge to be a disadvantage for him. Kinda like Tager's j.2C, sure, the matchup in general is in Tager's favor, but the specific move puts him at a disadvantage in my experience. I should have clarified.

Hey, I'm a Noel main, but I think this question would apply in general to any character... I've been experimenting with a few Chain Revolver combos that leave the opponent in a standing state. ie: 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> super-jump -> j.D -> d.5A -> d.6A -> d.6C -> 214A. These combos generally do less damage than Noel's BnB combos, but because the opponent is never launched... it seems like they offer good reset opportunities. For example, d.5A -> d.6B is a reset overhead with a 1-frame hole (beating 360A, Bang 2D, Bang 5A etc. etc. But loses to true DPs, 720C and reversal supers). The resulting combo will do ~2.5k damage or so. There is also the d.5A -> d.6D for a reset low with a 6-frame hole. Going for the launcher would net ~3.5k damage (5D d.6A d.6C d.6D d.2D 623D (launched) -> 66C blah blah). Going for the reset goes for ~2.3k damage, and then nets another 2.5k damage + Oki (both for the high and the low) if the reset is successful. So I'm risking 1000 damage, for a potential gain of ~1000 damage off of a high/low mixup. Of course, the risk is that the opponent will Dragon Punch / Reversal during the reset. And another risk is that they'll block it correctly and thus I gained nothing... On the other hand, even if they do block it correctly, it forces the opponent to be cautious during my combo strings. Currently, I'm thinking that I should reset often enough to make sure my opponent is always cautious... but I should prefer to do the "real" full damage combo most often. That way, he's always looking at the combo, trying to block the whole string correctly and never really gets any mental rest throughout the game. I'm curious what your guys opinions are on this: especially the Carl players who seem to deal with this issue all the time.

Well, it manages to get you closer to Noel, but you could have jut walked over there anyway. Lol. Jump towards me in the corner, and I'll just run under you to the other side of the screen. :-) Voltic Charge is news to me... I'll have to test the Voltic Charge then. If 3C does lose to it now, then 2B and Grabs still work. So point still remains, but with less damage to Tager. Overall, disadvantage to Tager as long as Noel is playing well.

I would like to thank Xanadu for allowing us to host the tournament, and I'd like to thank Zeth for putting it all together. This was quite fun, and I think I will need to get together more often.

"You have to be spaced properly, because d.6Cs hitbox is weird. But yes, if you are spaced correctly, it is airtight. (Chain Revolver Oki generally sets you up correctly)" I've never said otherwise

Its in a business park, close to a bunch of offices.

5A -> 6A -> 6C -> j.D -> j.6D -> j.6B -> j.5C -> 236D. Simple combo for ~2.3k + Oki.

Are you playing CT? Because that doesn't happen in CS. I'll upload a video to prove it. (although, I'd rather not, I'm kinda lazy)

Hard to say for sure. You're playing defensive, which is good, but you're not punishing his Jump ins. Then again, you didn't have to because he whiffed most of them anyway. I'd have to say... you may need to play a better Jin if I were to give criticism. Your IAD -> j.C whiffed vs him a lot, and I feel like a better Jin would have punished you heavily with 5B. Your combos aren't optimized (mine aren't either). You may want to work on clean 3C into Haida loop or at very least the more universal 3C 22C 66C 5D 2D 623D 66C links. You were successfully keeping him at bay with 5C. I feel thats a sign that you were playing a bad Jin who doesn't know how to poke. I'm pretty sure Jin's poking game is superior to Noels... hell, everyone's poking game is superior to Noels... its good that you know how to poke with Noel, but I just don't think Noel's poke / ground game would beat a good Jin's ground game. There was a good number (2 or so) of whiffed 3Cs. A better Jin IMO probably could have punished those into corner combos. Random 3Cs are pretty risky, and I don't think its a tactic that will work well in high level play. The Jin doesn't have optimized combos either. Either his hitconfirming or his execution sucks, because it seems like he dropped a lot of potential combos. Case in point, I'm certain the j.236D hit at 1:22 could have been well over 4k+ damage to you (especially with all that heat), but instead he completely drops the combo. He also lands a counter 623D on you, and whiffs the 2nd hit. I'm not sure if Jin needs a corner to continue that combo... but either way, its a bad sign for the Jin. Overall, the match tells me that you are certainly better than the Jin, but the Jin is far from impressive. If you had a video against a better player, it would say more about where you stand as a player.

You have to be spaced properly, because d.6Cs hitbox is weird. But yes, if you are spaced correctly, it is airtight. (Chain Revolver Oki generally sets you up correctly) You can easily test this fact in Training mode. Set the dummy to "block first hit only" and "instant-block". Then, d.6C -> d.5B. You'll notice that they'll block both attacks. You can then set a recorded training dummy Noel to do d.6C -> d.5B. Instant Block the (end of) d.6C and let go of the controller, you'll auto-block the d.5B.

Oh god, the cat missle loop. :-(

I always sub a "troll" character. In SSB:Melee, I subbed Pichu. In Marvel vs Capcom, it was B.B.Hood. I practice them only to rub it in my opponents faces that they lost to the cutest / weakest looking thing in the game. Platinum looks like the perfect character for that. But Valk looks damn awesome. Then again, I can always have two subs.

Well, they didn't really buff any of Noel's Normals from CT -> CS, so its hard to think of an example. I guess a better example is then the much better proration on 3C from CT -> CS, because 3c is a normla. Before, it was 60 P2, and now its 84 P2, which is really the reason we're getting so much damage off of it. Improving the proration off of say, 5B, 5C, and 2C would greatly improve Noel's rapid options off of them, but would simultaniously be hard to see in a Loketest. My point is this: we really don't know anything. Plus, all I want are my disjointed hitboxes back on 5B and 5C, that would be all of the buff I need IMO. Piss poor Abare i'm used to, but always losing the poking game pisses me off a bit.

Its rampant speculation that they'll keep the 2C 5C gatling in the first place.

The only buff ?? Lets remember how difficult it is to perform an exhaustive search on a character's buffs before we start worrying about that. Its not like we knew d.6C -> d.5B was airtight even on instant-block before I tested it for example. Anyway, with 2C not doing any damage / going anywhere... there's no reason for an opponent to block low anyway.

I dunno about you, but I think I get enough 2Cs to make it worth it. 5C -> 2C (opponent blocks high, knowing that 2C can't do shit...). 5A -> 2C, 5B -> 2C, etc. etc. Considering that the best option we have off of 2C is like... Rapid or Fenrir, a path to jump cancel would be nice. It will really depend on Noel's new j.B, j.C hitboxes (if they change them at all...). Noel's jump in options are pretty bad, losing to basically... everything :-( I guess j.4D is a wildcard right now. The only reason why it isn't an "anti-anti-air" is because all characters recover, even on whiff, before j.4D even strikes. Tager's 2A, Taokaka 5A / 6A, Ragna 6A, etc. etc. Hell, if you whiff a 6A as Ragna, I'm pretty sure you can mash throw and still catch j.4D. If the j.4D can punish the whiffs because its faster, then it would definitely be a useful attack. But.... its something I'd have to feel myself before I think its good.

Makes sense. Platinum does seem to appeal to the "Kawaii" far better than Noel. But I want my dodge mechanics + Dmash. I got into Noel for those reasons, I'll stick to her because of it. Hell, I was a pretty big D-Masher in CT, back when Chain Revolver sucked. :-)

On c), hell, I can guarentee that any scrub non-Noel player who touches Noel will think that 5D has "less invincibility". We need to make sure the player is very familiar with Noel before we can trust something like that. With a lack of startup and a lack of ending invincibility, as well as overall punishability / predictability... 5D is not really an easy to use attack. Pretty much, I'll only trust HeartNana. Go get them facts

Nurfs are easier to see than buffs. To see a buff, you usually have to use an attack in a way that you're not used to. To see a nurf, all you gotta do is use an attack the way you're used to... and then remember the epic fail.

Double jumps, Super-Armor charges, Aerial GETB.

HeartNana: are you still in Japan? Is there any way we can get "first-hand experience"? (erm... second-hand, from you at least?) I'm not going to lie: I am very interested in these changes, despite the fact that they may or may not come about in the final patch. Its just hard to get excited when the source of all this knowledge is so... distant.

BTW: As long as they handle it well, I think a Haida-loop less Noel is gonna be better for all of us. We managed in CS without the 6C BC loop, unthinkable for anyone who used to play BBCT. I for one prefer the new combos compared to 66C BC x 4. Just saying. Compared to the other changes experimented in the Loketest... like getting rid of Wall-Bounce on Bang's 623B and Ragna's 5B -> 6A doesn't gatling... losing the Haida loop isn't quite a big deal, especially when 3C -> 22BC -> 6C -> 5D 623D -> 66C churns out a ton of damage anyway. (not quite as much as Haida, but we can work without). As usual, I'm more interested in the Chain Revolver changes. Option-Select Chain Revolver would be a subtle change to the buffering mechanic... but would hella-improve Noel's Chain Revolver Blockstrings for instance, and I doubt that any Noel player would test for that at a Loketest. (BTW: I tested for OptionSelect Chain Revolver, the buffer is too large in BB:CS, so you can't do it) ************** Ultimately, lets face it. Anything can happen between now and the final release. And wishing for specific things and reading the translations of an unknown japanese player and trying to form an opinion of it is the definition of "ignorance breeding ignorance". I can think of a ton of ways to improve Noel that no player at a Loketest would ever figure out.

Way too early guys about this. This was only a test, and the majority of us haven't played it. There's some hard as heck stuff to test for. Do we know anything about 6A? j.4D seems ambiguous, etc. etc. Unless we played it ourselves, we can't really form an accurate opinion of the changes. Take things with a grain of salt, and lets just see how it works out