Alex073088 Posted January 1, 2010 Posted January 1, 2010 How is that fuzzy guard? It's a 'high/fake high and go low' mixup, and one they can poke out of at that. when the opponent is forced to block the frog it becomes a fuzzy guard set-up they can poke u out of it if there forced to block, plus the frog is gonna be more easier to force the opponent to block with when u have wind. j.a isn't a high, either. 5b > j.2c > sword iris isn't a fast overhead, exactly, and they'll probably start off blocking low against the 5b > 3c9d > 5b approach, though 3c9d seems to hit a lot for some reason. j.a not being a high any more is fuckin stupid, but whatever, j.b still is, if u do 5b>j.2c+3d>sword iris+rod being there to zap> would combo or atleast allow us to pressure a bit more if blocked.
God_Of_Olympus Posted January 1, 2010 Posted January 1, 2010 when the opponent is forced to block the frog it becomes a fuzzy guard set-up they can poke u out of it if there forced to block, plus the frog is gonna be more easier to force the opponent to block with when u have wind. j.a not being a high any more is fuckin stupid, but whatever, j.b still is, if u do 5b>j.2c+3d>sword iris+rod being there to zap> would combo or atleast allow us to pressure a bit more if blocked. rod is only +2, i've had a Hakumen iB that thing and punish mee for doing it
K2 Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 just somethings to share* anything 2d>2b/jb are useless unless the opponent is really scared you 99% of them just mash and u eat it for free after u jump and if they even IB ur 5B then is pretty dangerous for fancy mix ups they had no fear cuz they lose 1.3k for a oki mix up, but in return they do 3~4k+ on u so rmb, to do any oki, keep building urself reputation of 4b/3c9 i ate enough of tager broken 2c mashing already (broken , is like GGXX slash ky's 2hs, it can be a wake up srk)
Tari Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 5b > 3c9d is okay, but 5b > 4b can be mashed out of, just so you know. And there aren't that many players who'll mash during blockstun, I don't believe. If they're mashing, you can just make a small hole in your blockstring and get yourself a free counterhit. Also, as far as I know, oki is a wakeup-specific term. It doesn't apply to pressure in general.
Kuuhaku Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 Has anyone experimented further with the lobelia being "active" on bounce? It's probably another useless and weird change for Rachel, but it might be worth poking at.
choysauce Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 the only thing i've found useful for active lobelias is that you can combo 236a9d full screen lobelias into iris. i dunno how effective winding it after hit will be. but i'd imagine the only other way to try using it would be to 236a9d -> 7d. and see if you can just juggle it around.
K2 Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 yea, maybe my wording of kinda off * but i am sure u know wt i mean and yes 5b>4b can be mash out, ie taokaka's 5b and man, u won't believe how many ppl are mashing against me, they know wt they are doing, but is the risk and return that makes them do that. i can win 8 CH on them but they just need to mashing out into combo and i have to turn the table to attack cuz i am low is HP war and time is about to run out too. another thing to share * against tager 5cdc>236a, he can IB the 2nd C and pot buster u before 236a hits him ( kinda general but yea), and so does 3c9, he can IB the last hit and pot buster u too. 5cdc>delay>236b, i hate tager, becuz of this delay 236b, u cannot run up and 6a>BBL>8hjd>j2cd, so ur only high dmg option is gone against tager in midscreen, not to mention 5cdc>frog doesn't hit him. why so fail aagisnt the only guy with most HP and deal massive soviet dmg?? i havn't try out the 6dc loop yea, is it still there after 5b? i will go try it today =w= corner tager crouching, this is good news 3jdc>236a>5a, yes, the 5a will hit him cuz he is so fat. but most of the times they mash backdash and 2c in corner, so when ur j2dc whiffs... u got to spend 5~6 matches to educated them "i can punlish ur backdash by running into u deep or block ur 2c to punlish u...again...u do 1.4k and they do 4k+ if they win from it...so they won't stop...another RPS when he wins 3x and u have to win 10x...) against everyone but tager 5cdc>3c, since sometime 236a is not safe after 5cdc on block, u can cancel it in to 3c/236a on the 1st 5c, 3c will whiff agaainst everyone but tager in CS, due to more push back of 5cdc. more like a character speicifc thing, some character u cannot risk doing the 2nd 5c ( even it remove a primer, ugh) anyone can come up with a good list of character and thier moves for unsafe 5cc attemp?
Wind Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 Hey guys. I also would like to work on Rachel when the console version comes out. I'm just wondering, why isn't this first page updated to the latest info? Japanese got the updated Rachel changes here: http://www27.atwiki.jp/reityeruwiki/pages/60.html I could also translate it if needed.
kro_ Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 Has anyone experimented further with the lobelia being "active" on bounce? It's probably another useless and weird change for Rachel, but it might be worth poking at. It lets you combo iris for those times when you hit with 236b and 236c near the peak of its firing arc. Back in CT, if you activated iris right away, nothing would happen because the seed didn't touch the ground. That's no longer a problem in CS. Hey guys. I also would like to work on Rachel when the console version comes out. I'm just wondering, why isn't this first page updated to the latest info? Japanese got the updated Rachel changes here: http://www27.atwiki.jp/reityeruwiki/pages/60.html I could also translate it if needed. I don't really know anything about the JP wikis. If that is an official changelist from a trusted source like Arcadia, then a translation would be most appreciated. I'm sure that if you PM Soniti with the finished product he'll update the first post. If I were you though, I would doublecheck the sources with some of the other info gatherers on DL before putting in the translation work.
Kuuhaku Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Quite possibly the most depressing thing I've ever written. Feel free to correct me because some of the changes I'm not sure on, but this is for Soniti who isn't quite as masochistic as I am. Compilations to massive nerf ba... erm changes for Rachel in CS EDIT: Added mentioned changes. Normals 2A- Same 5A- Same 6A NERF: Slower recovery, more narrow hit box, less stun on CH 2B NERF: Prorates more 4B BUFF: A little faster (like 4-5 frames?). Takes off one guard primer. 5B- Same 6B NERF: Much shorter hitstun on CH, does not normal cancel 2C BUFF: Faster start up, wider hitbox 3C NERF: Hard to combo from 3C9D. Certain links no longer work 3C9D->6C. Slower recovery. 5C- Same 5C C BUFF?: Wall bounces when opponent is in the air. Can loop wall bounces. Takes off one guard primer. 6C BUFF: Height requirement removed. 6C -> j2C is maybe possible? Drive- BUFF: Charges up faster if Rachel has two or more wind stock. NERF/CHANGE: For some reason charges up faster if she has no wind vs. when she has one stock. NERF: Does not charge while Rachel is OTG. jA NERF: Not an overhead, hitbox changed? jB- Same jC BUFF: Hits some crouching opponents now. Can link to BBL. NERF: Less hitstun. j2C NERF: Cannot cancel on block. Can cancel into specials on hit. Can cancel into specials and 2C on landing. Cannot jump cancel. Punishable on hit. CHANGE: Level 2 and 3 take off one guard primer. Specials Tiny Lobelia BUFF: A Lobelia has shorter recovery. NERF: Less damage. Less hit stun. Rod is not guaranteed when Rachel is hit. B and C lobelia have longer recovery. CHANGE/NERF?: Bounces off of projectiles. Seeds become active for Sword Iris on bounce. Sword Iris BUFF: Can be used in mid-air. Seed no longer has to be in the ground to activate. CHANGE: Command is now 214C NERF: I remember reading somewhere about a hitstun nerf, but not sure. Impish... Pumpkin NERF: Much much slower on the ground. Slower in the air. Less hit stun. Less block stun. Less active frames. Not guaranteed while winded. Shorter flying distance. Disappears after a certain amount of time. BUFF: Can be winded any number of times. George XIII BUFF/CHANGE?: Does not jump, but can be moved with wind. Can activate while being winded. Can only be winded towards the opponent. Has a cool down meter after activation. NERF: Prorates damage to hell. Distortion Drive Baden Baden Lily NERF: Does shit damage overall. Lily(body) 320×6 〔1295(6HIT)〕 Lily(rod) 560×4 〔1586(4HIT)] BUFF: Activation time in air is about the same as ground now. Takes off one guard primer. Tempest Dahlia Command is 632146B. Can be used in the air. Can combo into itself. Has very little invincibility, but projectiles don't disappear if Rachel gets hit. Slow and easy to block. Safe on block. Throws out different things depending on how much wind Rachel has left. -4 winds (2200 dmg) two cows, giant pumpkin, King George (George shocks on hit and causes a bounce that can't be recovered from until landing) -3 winds (1800 dmg) two bats, two cow, giant pumpkin -2 winds (1600 dmg) four bats, cow -1 wind (1400 dmg) five bats, minimal stun Astral Heat Clownish Calendula- Same
God_Of_Olympus Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Quite possibly the most depressing thing I've ever written. Feel free to correct me because some of the changes I'm not sure on, but this is for Soniti who isn't quite as masochistic as I am. Compilations to massive nerf ba... erm changes for Rachel in CS Normals 2A- Same 5A- Same 6A NERF: Slower recovery, more narrow hit box, less stun on CH CHANGE: No longer has guard point but has head invincibility 2B NERF: Prorates more 4B BUFF: A little faster (like 4-5 frames?). Takes off one guard primer. 5B- Same 6B NERF: Much shorter hitstun on CH, does not normal cancel 2C BUFF: Faster start up, wider hitbox 3C NERF: Cannot combo from 3C9D anymore. Slower recovery. 5C- Same 5C C BUFF?: Wall bounces when opponent is in the air. Can loop wall bounces. Takes off one guard primer. Drive- BUFF: Charges up faster if Rachel has two or more wind stock. NERF/CHANGE: For some reason charges up faster if she has no wind vs. when she has one stock. jA NERF: Not an overhead, hitbox changed? jB- Same jC BUFF: Hits some crouching opponents now. Can link to BBL. NERF: Less hitstun. j2C NERF: Cannot cancel on block. Can cancel into specials on hit. Can cancel into specials and 2C on landing. Cannot jump cancel. Punishable on hit. CHANGE: Takes off one guard primer. Specials Tiny Lobelia NERF: Less damage. Less hit stun. Rod is not guaranteed when Rachel is hit. CHANGE/NERF?: Bounces off of projectiles. Seeds become active for Sword Iris on bounce. Sword Iris BUFF: Can be used in mid-air. Seed no longer has to be in the ground to activate. CHANGE: Command is now 214C NERF: I remember reading somewhere about a hitstun nerf, but not sure. Impish... Pumpkin NERF: Much much slower on the ground. Slower in the air. Less hit stun. Less block stun. Less active frames. Not guaranteed while winded. Shorter flyind distance. BUFF: Can be winded more than 3 times? George XIII BUFF/CHANGE?: Does not jump, but can be moved with wind. Can activate while being winded. Can only be winded towards the opponent. NERF: Prorates damage to hell. Distortion Drive Baden Baden Lily NERF: Does shit damage overall. BUFF: Activation time in air is about the same as ground now. Takes off one guard primer. Tempest Dahlia Command is 632146B. Can be used in the air. Can combo into itself. Has no invincibility, but projectiles don't disappear if Rachel gets hit. Slow and easy to block. Safe on block. Takes off one guard primer. Throws out different things depending on how much wind Rachel has left. -4 winds is two cows, giant pumpkin, King George (George shocks on hit) -3 winds ??? -2 winds ??? -1 wind is four bats Astral Heat Clownish Calendula- Same Baden is also MUCH MUCH faster just noticed you didnt mention that
Wind Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I edit a few base on the info from the wiki. The things I added are in RED. Quite possibly the most depressing thing I've ever written. Feel free to correct me because some of the changes I'm not sure on, but this is for Soniti who isn't quite as masochistic as I am. Compilations to massive nerf ba... erm changes for Rachel in CS Normals 2A- Same 5A- Same 6A NERF: Slower recovery, more narrow hit box, less stun on CH CHANGE: No longer has guard point but has head invincibility The wiki said it is still upper body guard, I'm not sure if this was updated. 2B NERF: Prorates more 4B BUFF: A little faster (like 4-5 frames?). Takes off one guard primer. 5B- Same 6B NERF: Much shorter hitstun on CH, does not normal cancel 2C BUFF: Faster start up, wider hitbox Take off one guard primer. 3C NERF: Cannot combo from 3C9D anymore. Slower recovery. 5C- Same If CH, it is Fatal Counter. 5C C BUFF?: Wall bounces when opponent is in the air. Can loop wall bounces. Takes off one guard primer. Drive- BUFF: Charges up faster if Rachel has two or more wind stock. NERF/CHANGE: For some reason charges up faster if she has no wind vs. when she has one stock. jA NERF: Not an overhead, hitbox changed? jB- Same jC BUFF: Hits some crouching opponents now. Can link to BBL. NERF: Less hitstun. j2C NERF: Cannot cancel on block. Can cancel into specials on hit. Can cancel into specials and 2C on landing. Cannot jump cancel. Punishable on hit. CHANGE: Takes off one guard primer. Guard primer only taken when J2C is LV2 or up (ie: the higher versions) Specials Tiny Lobelia NERF: Less damage. Less hit stun. Rod is not guaranteed when Rachel is hit. CHANGE/NERF?: Bounces off of projectiles. Seeds become active for Sword Iris on bounce. Sword Iris BUFF: Can be used in mid-air. Seed no longer has to be in the ground to activate. CHANGE: Command is now 214C NERF: I remember reading somewhere about a hitstun nerf, but not sure. Impish... Pumpkin NERF: Much much slower on the ground. Slower in the air. Less hit stun. Less block stun. Less active frames. Not guaranteed while winded. Shorter flyind distance. BUFF: Can be winded more than 3 times? Disappears after certain time or when Rachel is hit or blocked. But can winded any number of times. George XIII BUFF/CHANGE?: Does not jump, but can be moved with wind. Can activate while being winded. Can only be winded towards the opponent. NERF: Prorates damage to hell. After George XIII disappears, it will require an amount of time before can be re-summoned. Distortion Drive Baden Baden Lily NERF: Does shit damage overall. Shit damage indeed: (Lily(body) 320×6 〔1295(6HIT)〕 Lily(rod) 560×4 〔1586(4HIT)〕 ) I think it causes no real damage in combos >< BUFF: Activation time in air is about the same as ground now. Takes off one guard primer. Tempest Dahlia Command is 632146B. Can be used in the air. Can combo into itself. Has no invincibility, but projectiles don't disappear if Rachel gets hit. Slow and easy to block. Safe on block. Throws out different things depending on wind left. Uses 1 wind when activate. ４ wind：about 2200dmg。cow×２＋pumpkin×２＋King frog。King frog takes 1 guard primer. King frog hit causes bounce and can't recover until ground. ３ wind：about 1800dmg。bat×２＋cow×２＋pumpkin。Hit by pumpkin will be sent up high. (not clear if recovery is possible) ２ wind：about 1600dmg。bat×４＋cow。 １ wind：about 1400dmg。bat×５。 Hit causes only minimal stun. Astral Heat Clownish Calendula- Same Rachel's move damage list: http://www27.atwiki.jp/reityeruwiki/pages/61.html
Tari Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Few things worth noting/checking out: - What's BBL's minimum damage? We know it's very low, but we don't seem to have exact values. - Is Air BBL fast enough to combo from the end of a standard air combo? In my experience, it isn't, but I've only tried once or twice. - (Needs confirmation) The pumpkin will disappear when that timer counts down, regardless of when you last used it. - 6A still has upper-body guard, as mentioned, but its duration is significantly shorter, and the move's hitbox is all sorts of crap. Also, it has less stun on CH? Can't say I've noticed this one at all. - 3c9d can still be combo'd, just not into 6c. 3c9d 5a 5b is legit, for example. - j.2c (level 3) is a forced fatal counter. - 5cc (aerial hit) also causes groundslide, if the wall is too far away. Can lead into OTG state from wallbounce and be combo'd from (though I think most of us just do frog into 5cc again or something). - Drive: Does not charge while Rachel is in OTG state. Nice writeup, though, Polka. And that's a useful damage chart.
Kuuhaku Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I'll check it out again when I go to Robo-alex's on Monday, but from when I played it felt like less CH hit stun. Or maybe it's more recovery because I couldn't just spam 6A after 6A CH. Also I noticed in a lot of earlier videos players were whiffing 6A CH combos. I'll fix it so Soniti can head desk at reading all of it, or copy and paste it like how a mom uses a pair of tongs to throw away a dirty diaper. God of Olympus- ground BBL as far as I notice doesn't activate any faster than it did in CT. Air BBL I did pick up on being faster. Now it matches ground BBL so if I accidentally TK super I rage less.
Tari Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 6a recovery is notably longer, and is basically the reason that 6a CH -> 6a does not typically work anymore, unless you land the CH on an opponent high in the air. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe j.2c doesn't cancel into anything until you land, even on hit. Not really a change (more like a side-effect of some changes), but I figure it's worth mentioning that Nirvana eats the pumpkin, now, as well. If it hits her while she's active, it will simply vanish. Also, somewhat random, but I remember you wrote something about cat-punching Jin's ice swords, and I can safely say this is still very possible in CS, since I did it earlier today.
kro_ Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I'm pretty sure A lobelia has less recovery time, while B and C have more recovery time.
choysauce Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Few things worth noting/checking out: - Drive: Does not charge while Rachel is in OTG state. . what exactly is otg state? just the state after being knocked down right? i could swear if i'm on the ground the wind does charge. is it the time before you are allowed to tech? maybe its cuz i'm not teching right away
GenoWhirl Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 You mean to say that, in a rachel mirror, if you get 5b 5cdc'd and stay in the ground...wind recharges? :o
Wind Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 According to the wiki, the hight limit for 6C > J2C is gone. Which means 6C > J2C is legit? But it also noted that J2C without causing bounce is useless, so I guess it isn't worth checking.
Kuuhaku Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe j.2c doesn't cancel into anything until you land, even on hit. I'll try to find time to make changes, but from what I've seen, you can cancel j2C into specials on hit. Just it's not a good idea as you'll get beat up for it. Well... j2C is in general a bad idea unless it's a level 2 or 3 and you're sure for a hit.
God_Of_Olympus Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I'll try to find time to make changes, but from what I've seen, you can cancel j2C into specials on hit. Just it's not a good idea as you'll get beat up for it. Well... j2C is in general a bad idea unless it's a level 2 or 3 and you're sure for a hit. thats not entirly true, if you have a pumpkin out it's safe and it be comboed off by sword iris for some pretty notaably good dmg combos in general, i do agree that j2C is a bad bad move
Hoshi no Kaabii Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Ugh. Why did the have to rape her j.2c so hard? That drill was so useful...
Kuuhaku Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 thats not entirly true, if you have a pumpkin out it's safe and it be comboed off by sword iris for some pretty notaably good dmg combos in general, i do agree that j2C is a bad bad move But that requires setups ahead of time. And if you already have a convenient rod and miraculously have pumpkin, why would you waste that opportunity with j2C? Also, they can DP when she goes for the special cancel. Invincibility keeps them safe from setups while you eat the DP and possibly a 3-4k combo. One sort of not really notable advantage to being totally gimped is you'll find opponents taking a lot more risks because: win they do 3-4k damage (or higher). lose they eat 1.3kish damage... 2k if Rachel has heat. If you win these bets every time, you can get a life lead for a time out win. So basically, if your opponent is cautious and knows what their doing... you're kinda screwed. Except against Hazama because you can run away better than he can.
Tari Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 If you have a pumpkin, you can do 5d low j.2c cancelled into 236a, then wind the pumpkin to keep yourself safe and keep up pressure. 236a's shorter recovery means that the followup wind will actually push Rachel back into range of the opponent, allowing for 4b/2b followups and the likes. 236a definitely has less recovery, as in CT, the above did not work the same way. Follow-up wind after 236a would not move Rachel, because she'd still be recovering from the seed.
wuku Posted January 4, 2010 Posted January 4, 2010 6A has guard point, which is still reliable 3C can do combo from 3C9D but harder. not +2 on block anymore. maybe +0 or -1 on block now. Tiny Lobelia - A,B,C versions all have less recovery now. Tempest Dahlia - it has very few frames invincibility, tho it's shitty. and follow-up projectiles don't come if Rachel gets hit. 4 wind: King frog doesn't let enemy bounce on hit but has same effect of the sword iris hit motion with more untechable time. ３ wind: you can do an air combo after the pumpkin hits 2 wind, 1 wind: trash
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