Airk Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Listening is legit! I've actually heard some tournament players like to unmap the 7th and 8th buttons on the stick and then use them as 'fake' buttons for people who they think are listening to their inputs.
St1ckBuG Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I must be doing something wrong since I can break greens on reaction. I think there is a misunderstanding here. Breaking a throw means you have 13 frames to react to a BIG GREEN exclamation mark in addition to the throw startup frames. Blocking overheads is much harder since their animation is pretty subtle. Makoto's overhead is 19 frame startup of a subtle animation. Not sure how long it takes for the brain to recognize that the animation is starting up and telling you to gear yourself for an overhead, but i'm pretty sure that the time between when you realize the overhead is coming out and the time when it hits is much less than 19 frames. I swear to god if there was a BIG green exclamation point at the startup of every overhead in this game, I could block it on reaction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRmq3PT1Ip4#t=11m08s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT37cDa7d6g#t=2m06s Seriously, this argument about anticipation vs. reaction has grown stale. I'm surprised it even came up again... Look dustloop kiddies, there are two sides to this coin, and not one side (opinion) is 100% better than the other. Using OS tech is only ever a bad idea when your opponent knows you're using it. If your opponent doesn't know about it or work around it, you're going to break way more throws and get blown up less than if you were to just press BC if you think a throw is coming. This depends on your opponents knowledge along with a little bit of luck. Using regular throw tech will gaurd you against TRM setups, but it will also get you blown up if you anticipate a throw wrong. There are a lot of setups in this game that make you want to break a throw, and most of the time they lead to big damage. I could go through thousands of match videos on youtube (of both US and JP play) and count thousands of times when the person getting thrown should've tried to tech the other way. It all comes down to personal preference. Anyone who argues about this is only saying shit for the sake of arguing which has no place in this thread, at all. Please. Move. On.
Nini Heart Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 No one said OS throw tech is bad or that reacting is bad or that one is better than the other. I was just answering to a statement where it was claimed it is IMPOSSIBLE to tech greens on reaction. As for that video, I could explain why I got grabbed there besides not using OS tech but it would sound like excuses so let's just say I shoulda used OS tech there.
Rhiya Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) I think there is a misunderstanding here. Breaking a throw means you have 13 frames to react to a BIG GREEN exclamation mark in addition to the throw startup frames. Blocking overheads is much harder since their animation is pretty subtle. Makoto's overhead is 19 frame startup of a subtle animation. Not sure how long it takes for the brain to recognize that the animation is starting up and telling you to gear yourself for an overhead, but i'm pretty sure that the time between when you realize the overhead is coming out and the time when it hits is much less than 19 frames. I swear to god if there was a BIG green exclamation point at the startup of every overhead in this game, I could block it on reaction. Millia turns into a freaking moon for TK Bad Moon, but it's not like people don't get hit by it regularly and it's barely reactable (16f minimum startup). http://www.teyah.com/milliablocker.html Seriously, try to block that shit on reaction. And don't tell me it's not obvious. Throw break has just as obvious an animation, but without the throw startup, it's 13f. Think how hard that would be to do on reaction compared to this. And, like I said, throw startup is subtle. As per why I'm calling it not reactable, the accepted rule is basically that people can't react to things faster than 15f. Never really seen anyone challenge this /except/ on green throw break, for some reason, which a strangely large amount of people seem to think is reactable. Edited June 17, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos
Lord Knight Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 I've got a few Litchi-based questions for you. 1. How do you feel about Litchi's pokes? More specifically, what are they good for (absolutely nothing, sing it again, etc.)? I find myself using 2B[m] and 6B[m] rarely but they seem like a low reward proposition for a medium-high amount of risk. 3C[m] seems to sort of border on worthless; how do you use this? I'm also uncertain as to the particular advantages of 6C[m] and I've yet to incorporate that; if you could shed some light onto that I'd appreciate it. 1.5. Not a poke, but now that j.C is techable, what use does it have neutral? 2. In line with normals-related questions, what do you feel is the purpose of 6A[m] in CS2? How often is it worth the meter expense just to have access to an overhead that doesn't drop the staff, especially considering the potential for damage is similar to 4D (and maybe even less midscreen unless I'm doing it wrong)? 3. You mentioned in the previous thread that the IB nerf may change the dynamics of using Daisharin midscreen for pressure due to the implausibility of IBing the first hit and jumping out. What's your take on this now? 4. I have a lot of trouble AAing effectively against much of the cast as Litchi. Is there any advice you could provide regarding this? Moreso with the staff but staffless would be good too. 5. Given the gimpy pokes and the short carry of Litchi's midscreen combos, how do you work your opponent towards the corner? It seems substantially more difficult to make or keep space as Litchi in CS2 and I have a feeling that I'm throwing the staff out more often than I should be. 6. How pertinent are the newfound advantages of staffless Litchi relative to staff Litchi to her game? By this I mean the fact that Litchi builds much more distance, damage, and meter with her staffless combos midscreen than she does with her staff combos. I suppose what I'm asking is given this information, is it potentially desirable to forego the staff entirely midscreen despite the loss in range due to the fact that it can get you into the corner on almost any hit? I realize that this is a lot of questions and if you don't feel like answering all of them, I understand/would appreciate any answers you can give. Thanks in advance. 1. Litchi's pokes are used similarly to CS1. You use them to keep them out of a space, or discourage them from moving.I actually don't like 2B[m] as a poke. 6B is good though, especially near the corner. 3C is good if you get a counter hit, as you can combo off it and carry to the corner. 2B has practically no reward off it, but it does low profile so it does see some situational use. 6C causes spin on hit, which is useful if it hits, but it's 24f startup, so you have to throw it out rather preemptively. . . it's best use is just comboing off 5B[m] CH > 6C > iad jB > etc. 1.5. jC never had much use in neutral, it's just a jump in. 2. 6A[m] in CS2 is not worth spending meter to combo off of (for the most part) considering that she has the much more useful, meterless 4D. Midscreen you can't even really can't even really carry to the corner off it. 6A is great if you get FC off it. Really I don't spend meter on it. I use it like Jin's 6A, just additional pressure. 3. I haven't actually tested it, however I think that you can probably still do IB jump vs Midscreen Daisharin. I actually have to check that. 4.Staff, use 5A, preemptive 2C (matchup dependent), ItsuuA, Tsubame (matchup dependent). Staffless you have Hatsu or 5A. 2C works too. 2C[m] you use on characters that move in like Jin (preempts JB so that it's active). On CH or trade, it'll be in your favor. Itsuu is difficult to use midscreen, but great to use when they are cornered. Tsubame you use as Noel air super punish, Rachel hanging above you using pumpkin or something, or Arakune hanging above you in the air, as well as Hazama high above you in the air trying to tag you with a chain. 5. There are two things you can do. Generally if I have the stick, I try to do something (anything) to get a hit that can push to the corner. Whether this is backthrow, putting the stick down to go for staffless stuff, using 4D or j2D, I'll do whatever it takes to get that hit. The other way you can do is fish for a counter hit, as most counterhits should always carry to the corner. Between this stuff and neutral game, you should be able to push them to the corner. The problem is if you confirm poorly with the staff, it'll be difficult (to say the least) to get them there. 6. As always, I don't encourage one mode or the other. Both are important to have a complete playstyle with her. so its a matter of playing super safe/lame now? More or less. It's possible, like Nini says the green exclamation mark + momentum stop is a huge tell, and tells are a big part of reacting to a move. If Bang yelled OVERHEADS!! when he does 5C 6B everyone could block it. Lord Knight, I understand that getting a throw whiff is very strong, but I'd appreciate a little more explanation on the strategy. I'm not looking for character-specific info but rather the principle behind getting a throw whiff. Do you bait a throw and backdash to get it? I'm having trouble imagining the scenario. Thanks for the advice. You create a situation where it appears that you are going to throw them. Then you follow by moving out of their throw range (making their throw whiff), and then punish the whiff. since I see talk about throw reject going on I had a question for LK. LK what do you think about confirming throw rejects by listening? What I mean by this is that in many matches that I have played I have started to listen to peoples inputs when I'm doing pressure or when I'm blocking pressure. I found out that its not that hard to listen for throw attempts when people play stick (the fact that some of you slam the buttons so hard you can hear them from two floors up makes this almost practical) and throw a little after their throw reject attempt or break their throw attempt. I realize this takes away some focus from the screen where you should have your attention focused to block mixup, but I think offensively this could help with baiting out throw reject misses. What do you think? It's fine I guess, but you're fucked if you're playing at a loud tournament or a head to head setup. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT37cDa7d6g#t=2m06s Seriously, this argument about anticipation vs. reaction has grown stale. I'm surprised it even came up again... Look dustloop kiddies, there are two sides to this coin, and not one side (opinion) is 100% better than the other. Using OS tech is only ever a bad idea when your opponent knows you're using it. If your opponent doesn't know about it or work around it, you're going to break way more throws and get blown up less than if you were to just press BC if you think a throw is coming. This depends on your opponents knowledge along with a little bit of luck. Using regular throw tech will gaurd you against TRM setups, but it will also get you blown up if you anticipate a throw wrong. There are a lot of setups in this game that make you want to break a throw, and most of the time they lead to big damage. I could go through thousands of match videos on youtube (of both US and JP play) and count thousands of times when the person getting thrown should've tried to tech the other way. It all comes down to personal preference. Anyone who argues about this is only saying shit for the sake of arguing which has no place in this thread, at all. Please. Move. On. Everyone read please. Really, a lot of people "think" that they can react to green throws until they run into someone that uses throw reject or makes their throws whiff.
Zeero Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 As for that video, I could explain why I got grabbed there besides not using OS tech but it would sound like excuses so let's just say I shoulda used OS tech there. I couldn't see the BIG GREEN exclamation mark with the dat broken stick blocking the way and the bright blue/pink colours obscuring the BIG LIGHT GREEN exclamation mark, I doubt you could either. So I don't blame you for not being able to react.
Nini Heart Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I couldn't see the BIG GREEN exclamation mark. Herp.You don't even know how right you are. 360 BB+CRT = Invisible throws in the corner. I guess this is why I should have used OS throw haha
Zeero Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Herp.You don't even know how right you are. 360 BB+CRT = Invisible throws in the corner. I guess this is why I should have used OS throw haha oh trust me, I know. I've been there. Small CRTs just dont work with games meant for HD nowadays.
Rhiya Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Herp.You don't even know how right you are. 360 BB+CRT = Invisible throws in the corner. I guess this is why I should have used OS throw haha More like this is why you use the fucking scaling options and set it on B or C, depending on what you need to see the entire screen NINI DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO USE THE OPTIONS MENU/10
pochp Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 More like this is why you use the fucking scaling options and set it on B or C, depending on what you need to see the entire screen NINI DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO USE THE OPTIONS MENU/10 IIRC PS3 has this option but Xbox doesn't. LK can you confirm this? Now for the real question, in addition to the option selects for burst baiting, catching wakeup roll/DP, and guard/throw break, are there other option selects I (and everyone) should know and use? Not necessarily character specific, but if there are any (for any character), it would be good to know them to help figure out how to punish them if you realize your opponent is (ab)using them.
M4g1c4lM4g1 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 IIRC PS3 has this option but Xbox doesn't. LK can you confirm this? Now for the real question, in addition to the option selects for burst baiting, catching wakeup roll/DP, and guard/throw break, are there other option selects I (and everyone) should know and use? Not necessarily character specific, but if there are any (for any character), it would be good to know them to help figure out how to punish them if you realize your opponent is (ab)using them. I can attest to 360 not having this option for CRTs. No idea that PS3 could though. o.O
Nini Heart Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) More like this is why you use the fucking scaling options and set it on B or C, depending on what you need to see the entire screen NINI DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO USE THE OPTIONS MENU/10 Edit: NVM Edited June 17, 2011 by Nini Heart
Rhiya Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 IIRC PS3 has this option but Xbox doesn't. If that's the case, my apologies to Nini. And shoutouts to important features missing from versions of the game
zeth07 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 360 has the scaling options too, just an fyi. So I'm not really sure what people are talking about.
toanenadiz Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 360 has the scaling options too, just an fyi. So I'm not really sure what people are talking about. Run it on a non-HDTV and you would see that those options don't exist.
zeth07 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Run it on a non-HDTV and you would see that those options don't exist. Then that's really weird. Carry on.
Lord Knight Posted June 18, 2011 Author Posted June 18, 2011 It didn't use to have Display Settings in options before afaik.
MashThat5A Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 LK, what do you think about saving bursts with the way guard primers work in CS2? Do you think that using two bursts in a round is okay, generally not worth the risk, or something more match-up dependent?
Leaf Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 how do you feel about noel? should i take her seriously as a character?
atdsutm Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 any updated tier list? i want to change characters.
LuminAbyss Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 (edited) LK, what do you think about saving bursts with the way guard primers work in CS2? Do you think that using two bursts in a round is okay, generally not worth the risk, or something more match-up dependent? If I can take a shot at answering this, saving bursts has pros and cons with the way guard primers work. Green bursts are your way of turning the whole round in your favor, but at the cost of cutting your remaining primers in half. This leaves you at the danger of having your guard crushed easily. (I know you use Ragna, so as an example, he has 5 primers, which would become 2 after the burst, meaning a string with two primer breaking moves would easily guard crush him). Using two bursts (because you saved them) in this manner, would you leave you in a horrible position. If your opponent does really tight pressure, you'll either have your guard crushed, or you will lose your barrier, leaving you in a danger state where the guard crush will only kill you more. Keep in mind, the barrier gauge depletes faster than it did back in CS1. HOWEVER. Saving an extra burst to use as a gold burst (either as a reversal gold burst or in a combo to increase proration values) can be a very good thing, and can easily ALSO swing the match in your favor. Gold bursts are also +4 on block, meaning even if the opponent read it and blocked it, you get free pressure. Gold bursts also don't cut your primers in half. It really really all comes down to a situational sort of thing, and is pretty much highly dependent on who you're fighting, how the match stands currently, how much time is left, and so on and so forth. Generally, however, using two green bursts in the middle of one round is a really really bad thing that will probably only get you killed faster. With the way the primer system works, you really have to be more careful about when and how you choose to burst. Edited June 18, 2011 by LuminAbyss
XVII Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Advice. Lumin, want to play BB some time, see if the connection has healed?
LuminAbyss Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Lumin, want to play BB some time, see if the connection has healed? Gonna have to wait till I come back from my Africa Adventure, but I should be getting a better connection, so hopefully we'll be able to play.
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