Kiba Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Like the fact that everything he does controls a ton of space, and he still has a slow-but-plus-on-block special move? Or the fact that he gets like 3.5k off a midscreen overhead for no meter? Lmfao. If Tsubaki was getting the same amount of damage as Ragna, then they both wouldn't be unique in that aspect. Tsubaki is cool because she has the opportunity to amplify her damage with stock. Midscreen, of a 6A, Tsubaki can get like 3.2k midscreen, which isn't bad at all. Tsubaki also has more time to run after her opponent after a knockdown because the recovery for 22B/C is lower than Ragna's HF. At the same time, Tsubaki is faster than Ragna, and Tsubaki has ways around stuff when it comes to getting in, such as using 214D to get through Rachel's lobelia's or Lambda's swords. What does Ragna have? HF? Lol... I'm talking about stuff like that y'know, but I can't go further because I'm quite weak in this sort of argument. Edit: What C0r said really.
Airk Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 At the same time, Tsubaki is faster than Ragna, This is a myth, unless you are just talking about her dash speed, in which case, well, great, but honestly, I don't think it makes much difference. If you're talking speed of attacks, however, Ragna beats Tsubaki on pretty much every normal except 5C. For curiosity's sake, startup of attacks (i.e. how "fast" they are): 5A: Ragna 5 frames, Tsubaki 6 5B: Ragna 8, Tsubaki 10 5C: Ragna 13, Tsubaki 8! Yay! 2A: Ragna 7, Tsubaki 7 - I guess they both got nerfed from CS2 2B: Ragna 9, Tsubaki 13 Blahblah stuff. Sorry. I guess I'm just tired of being told that Tsubaki is a "fast character" when the "average character" has much faster attacks than she does.
Kiba Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Yea, I was referring to her dash speed. You've also gotta realise that once Tsubaki has stock, the opponent has to look out for too many things in specific parts of her pressure. For example, 5B provides her with high/low mixup, charge cancel mixup which resets pressure into more high/low mixup or a throw, and she has an unblockable, which offers her good excellent corner carry if followed up, and goes into a lot of damage in the corner.
shad0whiei Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Of coz she should do less dmg than ragna. I mean all you see online ragnas do is 5b - 5c - hf lol All seriousness though, I won't complain about tsubaki. She has plenty of tools other characters only wish they had available at the expense of low dmg. IMO speed+versatile > strong+predictable/readable(easier). I can't say much though. My defense in general is trash soooooo~ Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Kiba Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 All seriousness though, I won't complain about tsubaki. She has plenty of tools other characters only wish they had available at the expense of low dmg. I love you.
Airk Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Obviously all those characters aren't wishing -that- hard, since they're all above her in the tier list. :P Whatever, I guess. Tsubaki: staying viable by having more stuff than everyone else.
pktazn Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 I don't understand why we have to keep beating the dead horse that Tsubaki is worse off in Extend. It's been said and done and there's really nothing anyone can do to fix it until the next iteration or update. I'm not saying don't discuss her but when every conversation about what she can do in Extend somehow comes back to "she's still shit everyone else is better especially compared to Ragna" it gets redundant and makes me wonder why people just don't play him. And people didn't believe me when I joked that Tsubaki was the poor man's Ragna~
Errol Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I wonder when we'll get new moves for each character, or if we will at all. The characters do have plenty of stuff already.. Mugen is good but I feel like mugen is only good because we don't have a good damage DD. if 236236C did real guaranteed damage, like valk's or any number of others, we'd still be better off doing that instead of mugen.. probably more damage, cost less heat, use less charge. Exception being 5 charge mugen combos.
pktazn Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 They seem more interested in doing that for the unlimited versions onry
Adelheid Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 There were lots of new moves from CT > CS. We just need to wait for an actual sequel, then we'll have new moves, maybe.
Daedron Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Yay, thrown out of my fucking 6A THREE FUCKING TIMES IN A MATCH. Ffs, this is the exact fucking reason I want a 1 charge overhead in BB3 2B - 6A = thrown, 6B - rapid - 6A = thrown Or make it fucking gatlingable from 6C...HELL that would actually be pretty freaking funny to use too. Then again, I guess "LOLRANKED" anyways, but still...goddammit man. Meanwhile Ragna is parading around with his 20 frame overhead or however fast gauntlet hades is that leads into stupid amounts of damage for no reason except because it's ragna and Lambda's 4B manages to hit you even though you're 10 freaking feet above her and all. /end rant
Kiba Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 2B - 6A = thrown, 6B - rapid - 6A = thrown The 2B > 6A I could understand because of the gap, but the fact that it's possible from 6B > RC > 6A makes me :8/: I may have to lay off that and just opt for more 2A pressure. 6B > RC > 6A was not something I used often but it was there for mixup. Bleh. Though that isn't to say don't use it at all. Just be careful with it.
Errol Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) dunno, after 6b is a place people are going to mash anyway, so not sure why you'd rapid there into a slow thing like 6a. I need to make use of rapids more for continuing pressure, actually. 6CC>Rapid>2b/6b/6a sounds interesting. I can see if you get a hit on 6CC.. 6CC>rapid>6A>5C>2C? stuff? mugen maybe? And you can 6cc again in the combo because the repeat proration is on 6C, which was blocked. So, you certainly can get a lot of damage off a 6cc rapid, but to hit with 6a you need to rapid after the first hit. reaches over 3k with a simple IAD combo. 6C>214C>RC>6A is interesting, it can't be gapless, 6A is too slow. But I think there would only be like 4 frames between 214C and 6A hitting, shouldn't be enough for a jab or a throw. actually, 6bb is a really nice starter for mugen. reaches 4k, you can do an IAD combo afterwards. if you rapid at 6C>214C> then you've basically got a mixup between 6b and 6a. Either will reach 4k if they hit, if you do a mugen combo.. but basically requires that you have 100 heat. Hmm. I always like breaking an additional primer, too... Remember how 214C was +3 or something on block in CS1? sigh, the glory days... Edited March 9, 2012 by Errol
Daedron Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 dunno, after 6b is a place people are going to mash anyway, so not sure why you'd rapid there into a slow thing like 6a. Oh, I normally never rapid a 6B, though I would sure as hell have expected to not get thrown out of my only overhead if I did that...sigh. Not like I should be playing this game on 4 hours of sleep anyways, get mad salty lol
Errol Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 well, even if you rapided, you would have had to dash forward to 6a.. that eats up a lot of what you gained. On that note, 6a is annoying me with the new barrier. You have to be right on top of them in order to followup . Hey Kiba, the frame data for 22d in the wiki doesn't match on the character page and in the frame data page. specifically, on the char page it says the p2 is 89, and on the frame data page it says it is 80.
Errol Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Hmm, well I think it's the frame data page that is wrong anyway.
Kiba Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Yea it was the frame data page that was wrong, it's corrected now.
Daedron Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Talking about framedata, the data for 22x series (except D version) is incredibly odd. I am not sure which of the values is wrong but 22B for example is listed as a move that has 29F of blockstun, but is listed as a move that's -5 on block which..doesn't make sense because 29 frames is the amount of time it takes to recover (meaning it would be 0 on block), but that's not true either cause I've tested it and it's definately minus...the data is just wrong lol. Meanwhile we have charged 22B which now has 4 less frames of recovery, also 29F of blockstun...if this was true it would be +4 which isn't the case, it's minus on block for sure. Data just seems incredibly messed up and if this is from the mook then yeah, they really fucked it up this time around.
Adelheid Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Talking about framedata, the data for 22x series (except D version) is incredibly odd. I am not sure which of the values is wrong but 22B for example is listed as a move that has 29F of blockstun, but is listed as a move that's -5 on block which..doesn't make sense because 29 frames is the amount of time it takes to recover (meaning it would be 0 on block), but that's not true either cause I've tested it and it's definately minus...the data is just wrong lol. Meanwhile we have charged 22B which now has 4 less frames of recovery, also 29F of blockstun...if this was true it would be +4 which isn't the case, it's minus on block for sure. Data just seems incredibly messed up and if this is from the mook then yeah, they really fucked it up this time around. Arcsys doesn't care about Tsubaki's frame data Yeah, that's clearly partly CS2 data. I'll be at my recording setup in a few hours. I'll look at the frame-by-frame and get accurate frame data for all of that crap. It's probably that the blockstun values across the board should actually be 24f, not 29f. Also, looking at the CS2 data, I told a bunch of different people that the 2D data lists no recovery time when it I clearly does not recover instantly and in fact has 6f of recovery, but they neeeever fixed it... Edited March 9, 2012 by Adelheid
ThunderboltZ28 Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 On that note, 6a is annoying me with the new barrier. You have to be right on top of them in order to followup . I'm having problems with just about every move because of barrier. And trying to pressure.
Errol Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I'm having problems with just about every move because of barrier. And trying to pressure. Yeah, it's annoying, but short block strings, 6b, 6c, and charge cancels are your friend.
Airk Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 There were lots of new moves from CT > CS. We just need to wait for an actual sequel, then we'll have new moves, maybe. This; Has anyone received an actual new move since CS1? The closest I can think of are some changes like Hakumen's chargable 4C or uh... Arakune got some sort of new normal in CS2 or something. But I don't think anyone has gotten any new specials or anything like that. That doesn't seem to be "within scope" of the updates. The Ragna comparisons happen because he has a similar playstyle, and he used to be a similar tier.
Adelheid Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Also on the subject of frame data, 6C doesn't have its hitstop disparity listed, which is important to know for special cancel combos where the extra hitstop is what makes it work (7f for opponent but 2 for Tsubaki).
Recommended Posts