A.X.I.S. Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Tsubaki is fine, they just need to nerf the living hell out of all the other characters. Nah Tsubaki just needs a buff or two.
BatousaiJ Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Nah Tsubaki just needs a buff or two. Come to my doorsteps to offer your anus to me? What a pleasant surprise~
Airk Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Maybe A/B/C versions of this mysterious new overhead could have Foot Invulnerability, to continue to sortof make it the "opposite" of 214X. Not sure how useful that'd be though. Maybe just make them a different cancel option from 236X, so you could do say, the usual 236X > 214X > 22X thing, or you could do 236X > 412X > 22X or something for a different combo path? >brainstorming< Mostly my ideas for a "more solid" Tsubaki are just "reset all frame data to CS2 levels, but leave proration/damage at EX levels" - this should fix her terrible neutral game in EX, but still leave her overall damage at EX levels (which I think is okay?). While I wouldn't -complain- about better damage, I think we need only gentle nudges there, as opposed to the huge boost we need for neutral. (Though I think D moves should have their good starting proration restored.). Tsubaki is, as has been stated a "pressure" character, so we NEED to be able to spend our hard fought meter for extending that pressure. And to answer the specific question, yes, I would, ideally, return ALL special moves to their CS2 "on block" advantage. If absolutely necessary, slide the 236A/B/C series a frame or two towards disadvantage so that you have to be more careful spacing, but that's it. The reduced P1 on those moves should satisfy the whiners with regard to 236C.
Errol Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Nah Tsubaki just needs a buff or two. well, it's not really that I think she's that far off from other characters, but that I'd rather have all characters more on par with Tsubaki than have all characters on par with Ragna.
pktazn Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 I'd honestly prefer Tsubaki to have more mix-up with decent pressure (okay pressure if that would be a more even tradeoff). It's more fun for me that way since I like messing with people's heads in order to get in. I still hold that Arc Sys has to decide what they want her to do in general because Extend feels like an experiment on what Mugen could do since it was, honestly, never used until this iteration. ... I think it was used once by Nezu to troll in CS1 lol.
Errol Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I want mugen to behave more like Hakumen mugen. Drain a whole lot slower if you aren't doing anything, drain extra when you use D moves. and prevent bursts during entire duration of mugen.
BatousaiJ Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I want mugen to behave more like Hakumen mugen. Drain a whole lot slower if you aren't doing anything, drain extra when you use D moves. and prevent bursts during entire duration of mugen. That'd be broken, man.
Airk Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I want mugen to behave more like Hakumen mugen. Drain a whole lot slower if you aren't doing anything, drain extra when you use D moves. Mugen (the real one) is actually super weird. It: Increases base damage of everything by 1.2x Lowers Hakumen's combo rating to 30% Drains at a constant rate until you perform 9 magatama worth of specials, after which it drains 3x as fast. Disables primer breaking, rapid cancel, and counter assault Sets the min damage for Shippu to 100% (i.e. 4000 for the blade. Guh.) So it performs a very SPECIFIC sort of function, and isn't quite the freeform tool that MM/Install, or even Blood Kain is. I'd rather our move worked more like Blood Kain and less like Mugen. (Fixed duration, bigger effect on D moves while it's active.) This would be the most broken "haha, no escape from my non-D move using combo" tool ever.
shad0whiei Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 That's what J's lovely mugen -> 214D is for~ Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Errol Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 there's no reason that mugen -> 214D should work against anyone that knows about it. You just wait for a time when you know you'll be able to burst, which is pretty quickly... seems too easy to burst out of to me. How much of a gap is there between 236d>214D? Can people throw you guaranteed if you try that?
Airk Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) there's no reason that mugen -> 214D should work against anyone that knows about it. You just wait for a time when you know you'll be able to burst, which is pretty quickly... seems too easy to burst out of to me. I concur; As amusing as going from Mugen into 214D is, people just need to burst a TINY bit later. also, does 5CC > Install > 214D actually combo if they DON'T burst? Looking at the frame data makes it seem extremely precarious. How much of a gap is there between 236d>214D? Can people throw you guaranteed if you try that? It's hard to say, because the EX frame data doesn't give the cancel windows for D-cancelling. (Also, the way it's written makes it sound like you can do 236D > 214A on block, but I doubt that is true) It might depend on how late you hit in the active frames, but previously 236D didn't behave like that. 236D has 24 frames of blockstun, and can apparently be cancelled from frame 26 onwards on hit, so if we presume it's the same on block, then it...really depends on where you hit in the active frames, I think. Here's what I see: 236D is blocked. Goes from active frame into crossup frames. 24 frames of blockstun starts. Depending on how many active frames have elapsed, frame 26 arrives between zero and 9 frames later, leaving between 24 and 15 frames of blockstun remaining. Cancel to 214D. 214D hits on frame 22, so you can be thrown if there are less than 16(?) frames of blockstun remaining, since that would mean there are 7 frames between blockstun wearing off and 214D hitting. Er. So, 236D>214D should be safe against throws, unless you did it from very close. And I don't think anyone has a 6 or less frame 2A (Foot attribute attack) so... mostly you need to worry about Tager, who can 360A you out of it. (Most DPs don't have Foot.) Edit: Ugh. 236C was almost better in CS1. Super sadface. Edited February 28, 2012 by Airk
TheGreatReptar Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 On IB you can get jabbed or thrown out of the 214D. I'm pretty sure I got thrown out on regular block last night but I'm not entirely sure. I'll check when I'm not in class.
pktazn Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 I'd rather our move worked more like Blood Kain and less like Mugen. (Fixed duration, bigger effect on D moves while it's active.) I'm pretty sure Blood Kain is like that because the tradeoff is him losing life. Yes he can gain it back but it's still riskier since there's that chance that you just might mess up and the loss from that is greater than losing charges or stars that we can easily get back. Our own Mugen is slowly getting there for effects on D moves but I don't think having a fixed duration would work unless they remove the requirement that we need charges for Mugen... which would be cheating in a way lol.
Airk Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 I'm pretty sure Blood Kain is like that because the tradeoff is him losing life. Yes he can gain it back but it's still riskier since there's that chance that you just might mess up and the loss from that is greater than losing charges or stars that we can easily get back. Our own Mugen is slowly getting there for effects on D moves but I don't think having a fixed duration would work unless they remove the requirement that we need charges for Mugen... which would be cheating in a way lol. I'm not proposing we get Ragna style 7+k combos. Blood Kain doesn't end if Ragna gets to 1hp. I had a suggestion about how to manage "fixed duration" earlier on, but basically: Require at least one charge. Use all charges. Fixed duration. If you do 236236D, you get a super with however many charges you had when you started. Even WITH all this, it STILL lasts significantly less long than BK.
pktazn Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 Ahhh that makes more sense. I didn't see where you put that so I was wondering how that would be implemented.
BatousaiJ Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Extend Mugen is pretty awesome. You have to take into consideration so many things to use it properly since there isn't just 1, 2 , 3 , 4 and 5 levels but even like 2.25, 1.75 and etc which matter in getting that one more attack in if you're able to recognize it. Air mugen allows for some magical hitconfirming that can change a random j.CC hit into a 5k damage with only 2 charges. BK's use compared to it is pretty brain dead and I don't want Mugen to be like that in all honesty.
Adelheid Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 While looking over the Tsubaki guide, I can't help but notice it still claims 236C breaks a primer, and makes no mention of j.236D j.214D breaking a primer. And then in the tactics section... Basically the whole thing is written for CS2 and is need of an update to reflect some fairly serious changes.
BatousaiJ Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 While looking over the Tsubaki guide, I can't help but notice it still claims 236C breaks a primer, and makes no mention of j.236D j.214D breaking a primer. And then in the tactics section... Basically the whole thing is written for CS2 and is need of an update to reflect some fairly serious changes. I know, right? Kiba, get to it. Chop chop.
TheGreatReptar Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Lol, yea, you can throw Tsubaki out of 236D>214D and 236D>22D on regular block.
Kiba Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) PK is usually quite busy, but I'm sure she'll address that when she can. @Bat: I can't edit it! Edited February 28, 2012 by Kiba
Errol Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Lol, yea, you can throw Tsubaki out of 236D>214D and 236D>22D on regular block. I just checked this, and while I found that I could throw out of 236D>214D, I couldn't throw out of 236D>22D. Very close, but couldn't be done. Also, fyi Airk, 2as hit out of 214D. This kinda ruins 236D>214D for me because it won't even counter mashing 2a, terrible. 236D>22D works... (in my testing). but 22d is crappy on normal hit compared to 214d. Which maybe doesn't matter as players get better and stop getting hit by that because it crosses up. 2 charge isn't cheap, I'm a little disappointed.
pktazn Posted February 28, 2012 Author Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Hence the WIP guys~ I thought I at least changed the primer things but I guess not. I'll do that in a sec. EDIT: If for whatever reason you decide to do a raw 236D and the person sees it coming you can be thrown of that as well. EDIT 2: and done. I really only modified the tactics section to remove any obvious information that was for CS2 such as 5B and 22C being safe and whatnot. Edited February 28, 2012 by pktazn
Errol Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) I just checked this, and while I found that I could throw out of 236D>214D, I couldn't throw out of 236D>22D. Very close, but couldn't be done. even on 236D>22d, it's so tight that you can't use 22d, charge for a little bit, and then release it if you think they're going to get trigger happy on you. You really have to call out mashing after your 236D.. 236D would also be better, given that it is negative on block and the followups have big gaps, if it placed you a little farther away so jabs and throws wouldn't ever hit.. EDIT: If for whatever reason you decide to do a raw 236D and the person sees it coming you can be thrown of that as well. well, of course I do raw 236Ds.. grumble I got punished for my first 236C last night. Didn't really hit home how nerfed that was until that happened. Not just loss of pressure, but punished. Need to test more crap... Edited February 28, 2012 by Errol
TheGreatReptar Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 Lol, I think I recorded the dummy with some delay on 22D the first time. It's beating out jabs now too. Still loses on instant block to throws though.
Adelheid Posted February 28, 2012 Posted February 28, 2012 EDIT 2: and done. I really only modified the tactics section to remove any obvious information that was for CS2 such as 5B and 22C being safe and whatnot. Ehm. Well. c) Specials All D versions of specials require one charge. A version has a blue aura. B version has a green aura. C version has a red aura. C specials except j.236C, j.214C and 623C removes one primer. All specials can be cancelled to D specials on block or whiff with the exception of 22x and j.214x. Cannot cancel to non-D specials. The bold should really just be replaced with "214C and 22C remove one primer," or possibly scrapped altogether since it's not super relevant there. e) Guard Primer Removal Moves that remove guard primer: 6CC 214C 22C j. 236D j. 214D Neither j.236D nor j.214D break primers. It is specifically the j.236D > j.214D bit, where the dive collides with the projectile and makes a long-lasting wave travelling down, that breaks a primer. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but...
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