[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[pktazn]

It's fine honestly, I'd rather have the correct information up. I actually saw the second part for her C specials after I edited my post and tried to fix it but you got to it before me.

[BatousaiJ]

236D > 22A will CH on anyone mashing anything that isn't a DP.

22D works too but the quickest moves like Bang's 5A can hit you out of it if they're just mashing the crap out of it.

22D CH isn't bad at all though and you can get around 3K ish damage off of it along with untechable charge time before and after the combo.

236D > 214D is still worth using though and the reward is great if you get the hit so I would still use it as long as they're not being predictable with their mashing.

[Errol]

236D > 22A will CH on anyone mashing anything that isn't a DP.

how? can't cancel into 22a on block, can you? so you're just using 22a from a negative position.. so it should lose to a lot of stuff.

[BatousaiJ]

Ya, you can cancel into 22A after block on 236D.

[Airk]

Ya, you can cancel into 22A after block on 236D.

Oh, interesting. So the frame data IS right when it says D moves can cancel into other moves on hit or block.

That helps a little bit anyway. The reward is still pretty rotten though, since CH 22A doesn't really produce much damage anymore, and if they just block you are in for a lot of hurt. =/

It would really be nice if ANY of our specials were safe on block. -_-

[Adelheid]

So I'm trying to come up with some good ways to work Tsubaki's safe jump setups, and they seem pretty good, generally useful, if they decide to respect it against most of the cast it leads to an immediate 50/50 that turns back into itself, fun stuff. The only problem is that... If the opponent doesn't emergency tech the Veritas, then you hold up forward and they can neutral tech and avoid the safe jump attack, and I'm not really sure what to do if the opponent does this! I was hoping it would be more solid than it's looking like it is, since I have seen people go for it in many matchvids and it would be a shame if someone who was paying attention and knew the matchup could avoid the whole thing just by making a note not to tech Veritas in the corner. You can theoretically hit them with an OTG, but I don't see any way to make use of that that's better than just ending in Decus for the knockdown... Am I missing something?

[Rhiya]

oki in BB works like that unless you're litchi

as a result, you need to change up your oki fairly often

[TheGreatReptar]

Vary things up with the 6A oki. If they stop teching once you start using that, punish it by going for 2B afterwards and one they start teching again, mix the safejump back into the mix. You just have to start the cyclicle process of them learning to tech and learning not to tech until they're too afraid to do anything at all.

Other things you can do include just finishing your combo, getting some charge and guessing, or if you're doing the safejump and see your opponent's not going to tech, you can cancel j.C into j.CC to throw people off who think you'll be on the ground when they're done teching, or you can finish the combo, do dash up 5C, then do a delayed 2C to catch an opponent air-teching (those 3 ordered by increasing gimmickiness). You might also be able to just do j.236D on your jump in instead and hold them in the corner with the orb. That last thing is just me theory fighting while sitting in class though.

Also Dusk, Tsubaki has super legit oki by comboing into 236D to cause stagger state, then doing dash 5A into either throw, 6A, or 2B.

Edited March 1, 2012 by TheGreatReptar

[Adelheid]

oki in BB works like that unless you're litchi

as a result, you need to change up your oki fairly often

what a dumb game, needs more pool balls

Nah but that's not really what I mean I more refer to the fact that

Vary things up with the 6A oki. If they stop teching once you start using that, punish it by going for 2B afterwards and one they start teching again, mix the safejump back into the mix. You just have to start the cyclicle process of them learning to tech and learning not to tech until they're too afraid to do anything at all.

OTGing when you expect them not to tech sounds good but I see no way to get anything more off of it than if you had just completed the combo, rendering it sort of an on issue.

if you're doing the safejump and see your opponent's not going to tech, you can cancel j.C into j.CC to throw people off who think you'll be on the ground when they're done teching

Unfortunate issue with this is that you still can't stall momentum enough to catch people neutral teching.

However, after reading that and testing some stuff I see you can at least air dash with a j.C to hit people neutral teching as a safe jump, and use j.CC to catch people who you can see are teching late. Which I find to be acceptable. I just wanted to make sure that there was in fact any option to deal with such an obvious counter.

[Rhiya]

Also Dusk, Tsubaki has super legit oki by comboing into 236D to cause stagger state, then doing dash 5A into either throw, 6A, or 2B.

Costs charge. Also requires them to be on the ground, so no damaging combos can end this way.

I'm not gonna argue this too hard though. I'm not really qualified to debate Tsubaki anymore

[TheGreatReptar]

If you get a successful reset, it's well worth the charge, and can also be used to change your positioning near the corner. It's definitely a safer mixup alternative to dropping a combo into an unblockable (hell, you can even cancel the 236D into a 22D and they'll tech out of the stagger into it).

You can also end a combo with 6B then dash>5A>6A/2B/throw them as well for a resourceless option. With perfect execution 6B(hit)>dash>5A should be like a 2 frame gap if you comboed into it on a croucher, 4 frame on a stander. It's quite a bit more telegraphed than doing 236D mixups and with sloppy execution you could get smacked out of it, but it's free. (also, I'm not sure on the frame gap on crouching because of scaling. At the very least, it's as good as 6B on block I guess. I'd assume that on a standing opponent the 6B was clean so that one's accurate)

I would agree though that the 236D mixup is only good in certain matchups where having charge isn't exactly difficult to accomplish. If it's like Lambda, Mu, or Valkenhayn, you're probably better off using your charge for higher reward stuff. Characters like Carl, Arakune, and Tager though, you'll probably find yourself sitting on a decent bit of charge quite often, and the mixup itself is very good, just not the reward.

Edited March 2, 2012 by TheGreatReptar

[Airk]

I just checked this, and while I found that I could throw out of 236D>214D, I couldn't throw out of 236D>22D. Very close, but couldn't be done.

Also, fyi Airk, 2as hit out of 214D. This kinda ruins 236D>214D for me because it won't even counter mashing 2a, terrible.

236D>22D works... (in my testing). but 22d is crappy on normal hit compared to 214d. Which maybe doesn't matter as players get better and stop getting hit by that because it crosses up.

2 charge isn't cheap, I'm a little disappointed.

Bringing this back up again because I was nosing around the frame data, and the FOLLOWUP version of 214D is supposed to hit in 17 frames, which should rule out any ridiculous throw shenanigans. If we're getting thrown out of it, that almost makes it seem like the game isn't using the "followup" version when you cancel a D move into a D move on block? I'd love to be able to test this, but most of the time there isn't enough difference between the moves for it to be testable. @_@

Just going to add it to my queue of things that make me think ArcSys didn't even QA Tsubaki's data...

[Adelheid]

Bringing this back up again because I was nosing around the frame data, and the FOLLOWUP version of 214D is supposed to hit in 17 frames, which should rule out any ridiculous throw shenanigans. If we're getting thrown out of it, that almost makes it seem like the game isn't using the "followup" version when you cancel a D move into a D move on block? I'd love to be able to test this, but most of the time there isn't enough difference between the moves for it to be testable. @_@

Just going to add it to my queue of things that make me think ArcSys didn't even QA Tsubaki's data...

Um. The cancel to another move doesn't happen for 10 frames after 236D hits. (Although the mook says it's at 26 frames, it's the same delay after the hit regardless of how far into the active frames you are.) 236D is only level 3, meaning 16 frames of blockstun. 10 + 17 - 16 = 11. This is longer than it takes for a throw to come out.

[Airk]

Um. The cancel to another move doesn't happen for 10 frames after 236D hits. (Although the mook says it's at 26 frames, it's the same delay after the hit regardless of how far into the active frames you are.) 236D is only level 3, meaning 16 frames of blockstun. 10 + 17 - 16 = 11. This is longer than it takes for a throw to come out.

Except the data says it has 24F of blockstun, so it should be 10+17-24=3, which should result in throws and jabs and whatever getting counterhit. On the other hand, the non-followup version gives you 10+21-24=7, which is the startup time of a throw.

[Adelheid]

Except the data says it has 24F of blockstun, so it should be 10+17-24=3, which should result in throws and jabs and whatever getting counterhit. On the other hand, the non-followup version gives you 10+21-24=7, which is the startup time of a throw.

Oh. You're right. My bad, I totally misread it. That's sure weird then!

[Errol]

frame data stuff

Who knows, but like... gotta be three or four of us who tested it and that's how it works.

[Airk]

I'm not arguing, I'm just perplexed. It always worries me when the game doesn't work like the people who made it say it's supposed to.

[TheGreatReptar]

So, I came up with a goofy new option select for Tsubaki for backdashers in the corner.

5C>22D(hold if desired)~C. If they backdash, the 5CC should catch them, if they don't, they block and you can charge your unblockable. Really goofy. Dunno how effective it is just yet. Trying to backdash meaties in training mode is proving hard for me right now =X

Hmm...I had Tager actually backdash both 5C and 5CC once, but it was no where near meaty. Going to have to goof with this a lot. If it does work though, it solves the problem Eshi and I were talking about with the 6A setup against Tager being in Tager's advantage.

Ugh...I can't find CSEX backdash frame datas on the wiki. Assuming CS2 backdash frame data for Tager didn't change though, Tager's backdash is 23 frames with that last 4 vulnerable, and a 12f cooldown period before it can be done again. The thing to be cautious of though is A buster, which has invulnerability on the 3rd frame. Backdash>360A therefore has a 6 frame window to punish. 6A>5C hits meaty, so all the startup is already finished by the time the opponent wakes up. I'm just going to assume it hits in the middle of its active frames. You can cancel into 5CC I'm assuming during any of the recovery frames since frame data just says from 11f and onward for canceling and 5CC has 13 frames of startup, so in theory, this should work. It has a 6 frame window to be timed properly though if all my assumptions are correct.

Edited March 5, 2012 by TheGreatReptar

[pktazn]

Huh that is pretty goofy but it sounds like fun.

How is the 6A setup in Tager's favor though?

EDIT: Derp just saw it in the wiki. Does that problem happen if you use 5C instead of 5B?

Edited March 6, 2012 by pktazn

[TheGreatReptar]

5C hits on the first frame that they're up, but if Tager can reversal backdash successfully, he can punish with a 360A if you don't delay the 5CC or whatever else you do. He can 360A or 720 you if you try canceling into 22D too. Pretty much, he can punish most of what you can do off 6A with just a backdash>360, so Tager's got a single option that covers all of yours (except jumping at him, or backdashing yourself).

I thought about it more, and the OS is alright for an automatic confirm for blocking/hit. You could still just delay your 5CC a bunch without buffering 22D into the 5C and punish Tager's backdash all the same. If 22D was still +, it'd probably be super godlike against backdashers (or really any of her specials being + and comboable from 5C would help). Kind of hard to keep pressure after using it the way it is now, so it'd probably be better to just hold the D and go for an unlockable, which carries its share of risks. I wish the OS could work the other way around though, with 22D coming out on a backdash and 5CC coming out on block, but that'd probably get really stupid since you'd be able to do 236D and punish all backdashes 100% of the time.

It's cool that it works, but it seems like a sort of silly OS with very little uses for it.

Edited March 6, 2012 by TheGreatReptar

[Errol]

gold burst> 5 charge mugen combo is 5700 damage. Hmm...

man, it's annoying looking at the damage changes for tsubaki compared with damage changes for Ragna. Moves were mostly about the same damage, sometimes a bit more even on our end.. but then damage is nerfed on this end, damage is buffed on that end.

So we've got a 5b that used to do 540, but now does 520.. and Ragna's 5b used to do 520, but now does 660. etc. Dunno how they decided to do stuff like that.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Errol

[Airk]

gold burst> 5 charge mugen combo is 5700 damage. Hmm...

man, it's annoying looking at the damage changes for tsubaki compared with damage changes for Ragna. Moves were mostly about the same damage, sometimes a bit more even on our end.. but then damage is nerfed on this end, damage is buffed on that end.

So we've got a 5b that used to do 540, but now does 520.. and Ragna's 5b used to do 520, but now does 660. etc. Dunno how they decided to do stuff like that.

Well, you see, if you take two characters that are basically middle of the pack balanced, and give one of them a huge pile of buffs to even super basic stuff, and you give the other one a huge pile of nerfs and a couple of gimmicky boosts, obviously you get a more balanced game...

I am, at this point, fundamentally convinced that Arksys cannot POSSIBLY be this stupid, and that there was some sort of catastrophic mistake where they pushed a half-finished version of this character live, and they just haven't noticed yet. It's the only answer that makes sense.

[Kiba]

gold burst> 5 charge mugen combo is 5700 damage. Hmm...

man, it's annoying looking at the damage changes for tsubaki compared with damage changes for Ragna. Moves were mostly about the same damage, sometimes a bit more even on our end.. but then damage is nerfed on this end, damage is buffed on that end.

So we've got a 5b that used to do 540, but now does 520.. and Ragna's 5b used to do 520, but now does 660. etc. Dunno how they decided to do stuff like that.

Ragna's buff is everyone's nerf~

again

For emphasis.

Tsubaki possesses one of the weakest 5Bs. It deals the same damage as Tager's, though if you're gonna compare Ragna and Tsubaki, you will probably need to consider a lot of other things.

[Airk]

For emphasis.

Tsubaki possesses one of the weakest 5Bs. It deals the same damage as Tager's,

It does more than Tao's! But then, Tao's comes out in 6 frames and is an excellent pressure tool. :P

though if you're gonna compare Ragna and Tsubaki, you will probably need to consider a lot of other things.

Like the fact that everything he does controls a ton of space, and he still has a slow-but-plus-on-block special move? Or the fact that he gets like 3.5k off a midscreen overhead for no meter?

[C0R]

Real Ragna combo nets you 4.3~? off 6b meterless from p1 position I believe.

Tsubaki's 5b is jump cancelable, which is rather unique for most pokes of that range.

I'm sure no one is going around saying that Tsubaki is better than, arguably, the best character in the game. So I'm a little confused as to who you're aiming to convince that she's bad, everyone more or less knows by now.