[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion (Old)

[destruction_adv]

Full disclosure: I'm not sure of what all the characters' ODs do exactly, but aren't the effects all supposed to be character-specific? How does that make drives more unique? If anything, it just adds to the character, imo.

They have common elements, but for the most part this is true. While we're on the subject of OD, how do the Tao mains feel about AB2 being an overdrive?

[Mightfo]

the thing with overdrive is that it still encourages the use in combos, especially when you consider the fact that it uses up your burst. most knowledgeable players in most cases would rather keep the burst than to use it on overdrive and chance it out. some overdrives may have less consequence to just activate out of nowhere (bang's maybe?), but the fact that it uses up a burst still creates an incentive not to do it.

my guess with overdrive is to give players more decisions this time around, what with the addition of crush triggers and overdrives. should i spend 25 heat to try and force an opening on my opponent, or should i save the heat for when i need it more? should i use up the overdrive and try to finish the round as soon as possible, or should i keep it just in case my opponent somehow manages to land a potential kill combo?

these particular design choices do deepen the strategy behind BB quite a bit, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. i'm all for what's to await this rendition.

thank you for this post :3

your points are fair, but i also suspect that pressure, and thus momentum may be generally strengthened in BBCP.* with this in mind, getting initial hits, aka getting momentum may become more important, which may make whatever neutral benefits an overdrive may give more important than adding on 1k-2k in a combo.

* the removal of guard primers may allow shifts in how moves are designed relative to pressure(for example, maybe they made jin 2d only +1 on block because they dont like guard crushing moves being +, lol) which make overall offense stronger, the quicker hit/blockfreeze will probably make dealing with stagger/chain pressure harder, CT may make offense stronger by making barrier more valueable while also potentailly more used in case one does not react to a 20f ct in time, and other shit that i am mad at myself for forgetting right now but whatever, this shit is all theory based on joketests anyway

II do not agree with this. I think the Drives are more diverse than OD.

So what? Gold bursts were the same for all characters. Overdrives replace gold bursts and are very different for characters and highlight aspects unique to them like wind gauge. With this in mind, saying overdrives contribute to homogeneity is absurd.

Why is it? Slow, unblockable attack with a cost, they certainly have something in common.

And they will probably see similiar use as well.

tsubaki did not invent her sort of unblockable(a fact which makes it seem like something very valid to give to other characters without being a significant threat to homoegenity imo), which also involved a strike mixup(being able to release it ASAP at 14f, which gave frame advantage in cs2) and was not barrier blockable.

they do have something in common, but the way they discourage blocking is different. CTs both make you want to barrier more in case you dont react in time to a 20f CT, but also make you scared to barrier strings to help you get out of pressure/not get CT'd due to the threat of not having barrier left/danger mode. tsubaki's unblockable does not create the same underlying concerns in pressure, can be a fully blockable strike much quicker and is much slower to be any sort of "unblockable". i was harsh to say it was "fucking sily[sp lol]" to compare the two, but I think that the way each option affects pressure/defense is significantly different.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Mightfo

[Isuna]

Full disclosure: I'm not sure of what all the characters' ODs do exactly, but aren't the effects all supposed to be character-specific? How does that make drives more unique? If anything, it just adds to the character, imo.

If you compare for example Hakumen's, Rachel's, Tsubaki's, Litchi's and Carl's drive:

• Hakumens drive is a counterattack
  
• Rachels drive affect "gravity"
  
• Tsubaki charges a special gauge
  
• Litchi changes moveset, while activating or placing a projectile on the screen
  
• Carl controls a second character
  

To me, these are completely different, while OD shares very much with each other. They are all a power-up mode, which lasts longer the less health you have and during this time you are buffed constantly.

If Drives were this like each other, all characters would for example fall into the extra attack section (Ragna, Jin, Noel, Bang, Tager...). While certainly many characters (well, most characters) fall into this category, not everyone does, and that is why I personally think it is more unique than OD.

[edit to avoid double post]

So what? Gold bursts were the same for all characters. Overdrives replace gold bursts and are very different for characters and highlight aspects unique to them like wind gauge. With this in mind, saying overdrives contribute to homogeneity is absurd.

True.

It kind of makes Ragna, Hakumen, Tsubaki, Taokaka and Bang less unique in one way, but it certainly contributs to diversity to the rest of the cast.

tsubaki did not invent her sort of unblockable(a fact which makes it seem like something very valid to give to other characters without being a significant threat to homoegenity imo), which also involved a strike mixup(being able to release it ASAP at 14f, which gave frame advantage in cs2) and was not barrier blockable.

they do have something in common, but the way they discourage blocking is different. CTs both make you want to barrier more in case you dont react in time to a 20f CT, but also make you scared to barrier strings to help you get out of pressure/not get CT'd due to the threat of not having barrier left/danger mode. tsubaki's unblockable does not create the same underlying concerns in pressure, can be a fully blockable strike much quicker and is much slower to be any sort of "unblockable". i was probably harsh to say it was "fucking sily[sp lol]" to compare the two, but I think that the way each option affects pressure/defense is significantly different.

(nods interestingly)

Though, CT are all chargeable, and do more damage to Barrier depending on how much you charge it so. So if you are in a blockstring with ~50%, it will create a similar scenario to Tsubakis (14F or #F unblockable) with ~20F lose barrier or ~30F lose barrier and be guard crushed.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Isuna

[BladeOfJustice7]

One problem I think is that Tager because of his restrained movement is going to take some damage while approaching, which is why he has extra health. But then, because of his large hitbox, many characters have Tager-specific combos that nullifies the extra health.

All characters is going to have some bad match-ups, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

yes well grapple characters inherently suffer from all the same flaws regardless of the fighter.

[*]Haven't played much GG, but then again, I am not saying it will be terrible to give Tager air options. Just that Tager in Extend is the only character without any air specials right? This uniqueness is now gone.

See by that logic then you mistake "uniqueness" for simply lacking tools, Tager and his A.T x n combos isn't that great sicne its gimps his damage output. Just because a character can do somethign that others can doesn't mean they're any less unique.

You've seen the shit other characters get to do to tager, namely Platinum. So it's a great unique game design for him to be trapped in her pressure because he lacks a legit AA? If we follow that logic than Marvel is probably THE most unique fighter out there since most of the cast still lacks tools to keep them viable at tournament level play. Giving tools to be good doesn't make you any less homogeneous with the rest of the cast, it makes you viable. It's like as if because hakumen got an AA as of BBEX he's become more like Tao (who also has an AA). Giving him optional air combos, which he already has in BBEX, and Air Driver makes him more viable and could allow him to actually rack in damage for once.

[*]Once again, I am not complaining, I think OD is a more interesting system than Gold Bursts.

In all honesty, I hated the Gold Burst system because it was a free dp that was plus on block. So anything apart from it I'm already biased and in support of it.

I do not agree with this. I think the Drives are more diverse than OD. But again, I am not saying it is a bad thing they added it.

The OD system gives variety of powerups depending on the character how is that not unique?

So what? Gold bursts were the same for all characters. Overdrives replace gold bursts and are very different for characters and highlight aspects unique to them like wind gauge. With this in mind, saying overdrives contribute to homogeneity is absurd.

^

I personally don't have much of an opinion of CT's until I can see more of them, and how they can be implemented, but for now I'm on the fence about them.

[Airk]

tsubaki did not invent her sort of unblockable(a fact which makes it seem like something very valid to give to other characters without being a significant threat to homoegenity imo)

This bit here in the parenthesis is complete and total nonsense. Ragna didn't "invent" the DP, but his having a very good one vs other characters not certainly contributes to diversity in the cast. Innovation is irrelevant for purposes of diveristy - it doesn't matter whether the idea is new or old, only whether the idea is already present in THIS game, and in what way.

It kind of makes Ragna, Hakumen, Tsubaki, Taokaka and Bang less unique in one way, but it certainly contributs to diversity to the rest of the cast.

Not Tsubaki - her "install mode" is still a distortion drive. Her OD is actually a completely unglamorous but super useful effect that gives her charge stocks (Rather the opposite of install mode.). It's a pretty good argument that at least SOME ODs will get used in neutral - while you probably CAN do OD combos that use the extra stocks it generates (I'm sure it'll be fun combined with Install), stocks are also super helpful in neutral.

[The Noble Clap]

If we follow that logic than Marvel is probably THE most unique fighter out there since most of the cast still lacks tools to keep them easily viable at tournament level play.

Gonna assume you're talking about MvC2. Because that's not really accurate in UMvC3. Overdrives sound like a pretty cool not comeback-mechanic because honestly, none of them are useful if you are blocking/not already winning. We could probably still have gold bursts though, because silly gold burst combos were hilarious and combo video sauce. It could be like ABCD+Taunt or BCD/ACD/ABD.

You know how when Unlimited Hockeyman does Yukikaze and even if you don't hit him he will still do the counter slash later? Hakumen should be able to do that with his normal counters if he holds the button or hits the button twice or whatever, just with whatever the counter attack for that move was, not the slash and blockable. When you hit the shield it should be either unblockable or put the other player in hit stop on the frame the shield is hit even if they didn't actually make physical contact with Hakumen, so if they do something like throw a projectile (for example, CS Jin's 236C) and then run up to Hakumen with it and try to do a mix up, Hakumen can counter the projectile and if Theory Jin isn't already blocking he gets hit. But if Theory Jin runs up and does nothing behind the projectile, Hakumen can counter it but Theory Jin can block it. The shield-hit version of the D moves could be 1-frame and unpunishable on block (except jD), so Hakumen player are still rewarded for making good reads on the opponent. The manually activated version could be like a normal, punishably-punishable move with normal start-up and no invincibility and minus on block. Then all the Hakumen players are happy, with their counters not being ass and increased combo opportunities without maggys.

Sorry if this is completely stupid.

[Hecatom]

Something that i want to know, what happens when both characters activate their overdrives

snip

Isuna, i really appreciate what you have done for us recording the local test, i really do, but i find your opinions about BB losing its uniqueness on the cast truly hilarious to say the least, specially because you complain about stuff that doesn't affect how unique every character is compared to the rest.

Like really, do you really believe that Tager not having enough air options was a a good thing? just because he lacked that and made it different from the rest of the cast that didn't mean that it was a good thing, he already has enough weakness because of his archetype not to mention on what kind of game he is, but he also has other weakness due how many options have the rest of the cast compared to him where to add more trouble he is relegated to depend on his gimmick, something that until CSEX was what have keep him on the lowest tier.

Giving him air options is something that is needed in order to be able to have an answer to the other characters with great mobility, something that has been one of his problems against characters like tao, val and haz for example, he still has his other attributes like low mobility, huge hitbox, etc.

Another thing, if they really want to improve Arakune's curseless game while reducing the stupidity of his curse mode that is an improvement imo, the only reason why Ara has not been considered low is because his curse mode is stupidly good, that has made him practically an one dimensional character when it comes to gameplay, and that is something that is not really good in the long term, improving his options when he is outside the curse mode, and trying to balance the curse mode while not making it useless is a good thing in my book.

As for Hakumen, i can't really talk much about it, outside that right now Haku has great normals, great passive game (due his metter gain) and a good options due his drive, right now the character has a lot of good stuff going for him, so it seems to me that they are trying to balance him in a way that he can still keep his good tools but giving him a weakness (one that in theory was the inherent one in his design).

Those 3 characters are still unique, because their tools and their gameplan is not the same as the other members of the cast, they still have their own goals (gameplay wise) on the game and their own ways to accomplish them, the difference is that they are trying to even the field addressing the rough points on their design/gameplan.

Edit

Another thing, i like the idea of the OD since instead of just tacking a x factor with common attributes across the cast, they are trying to add something that can help the gameplan and strategy of each character based on what they already have you need to see them not only as a buff mode, but as also that adds to each strategy, not only that, you also need to weight how to use your resources, do you want to burst or do you want to use the OD.

The same goes for the CT, not every character was able to capitalize damaging the primers (not something bad imo, but it is comprehensible that they want to even the field) so even when they all are given a similar option there is a strategy factor to be considered based on your resources, it use meter, something that is very valuable because it grants the character access to other options aswell, like better reversals, better damage options, etc, and different characters have different stuff that they want to do with say meter, so the decisions made around if you want to CT on your blockstring or not still has a different impact based on what each character wants to do.

Sorry for the wall of text btw, i have the bad habit on going on lengthy posts when trying to explain my POVs.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hecatom

[destruction_adv]

Something that i want to know, what happens when both characters activate their overdrives

The game explodes and transforms into Hokuto no Ken.

[STenSatsu]

I'm hoping the maximum style potential in the combo system is increased. I know optimization will make most tournament combos end up similar, but I'd love to not see another 6 minute Ragna or Noel cmv of the same combo over and over.

So far I really like the ideas behind the systemwide changes outside of longer OD for low life. Especially since they seem to have uses both inside and outside of combos which is something a lot of moves in the game lack.

[mAc Chaos]

If the question is "can a lack of tools contribute to uniqueness" then Isuna is right. You don't encourage a character's playing style through just giving them good tools, but also deciding what kind of weaknesses they have. For instance, an up close character might have poor long range game (on purpose) to encourage the character to get in the other guy's face. Same with zoners and being poorly equipped to deal with up close combat. That creates unique gameplay.

However, that's different from a character just being crippled and not having any way to deal with things. They could try and give someone like Tager some tools he might need and balance it out somewhere else to encourage his unique style. If they know what they're doing they can juggle both things.

[Hecatom]

And that is the thing, right now they are trying to balance the problems with the characters while keeping them unique on what they are supposed to do, they still have their weakness and the strong points, but at the same time they are giving them options to help their gameplan and strategy.

Tager is still a low mobile grappler, Hakumen is still a slow powerhouse with good defensive capabilities and Ara is still ara.

The lack of tools is not a good way to achieve uniqueness, imo, but a clear proportion on weakness and strong points is, all while trying to keep those 2 balanced considering the gameplan and strategy that the character is designed for.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Something that i want to know, what happens when both characters activate their overdrives

Isuna, i really appreciate what you have done for us recording the local test, i really do, but i find your opinions about BB losing its uniqueness on the cast truly hilarious to say the least, specially because you complain about stuff that doesn't affect how unique every character is compared to the rest.

Like really, do you really believe that Tager not having enough air options was a a good thing? just because he lacked that and made it different from the rest of the cast that didn't mean that it was a good thing, he already has enough weakness because of his archetype not to mention on what kind of game he is, but he also has other weakness due how many options have the rest of the cast compared to him where to add more trouble he is relegated to depend on his gimmick, something that until CSEX was what have keep him on the lowest tier.

Giving him air options is something that is needed in order to be able to have an answer to the other characters with great mobility, something that has been one of his problems against characters like tao, val and haz for example, he still has his other attributes like low mobility, huge hitbox, etc.

Another thing, if they really want to improve Arakune's curseless game while reducing the stupidity of his curse mode that is an improvement imo, the only reason why Ara has not been considered low is because his curse mode is stupidly good, that has made him practically an one dimensional character when it comes to gameplay, and that is something that is not really good in the long term, improving his options when he is outside the curse mode, and trying to balance the curse mode while not making it useless is a good thing in my book.

As for Hakumen, i can't really talk much about it, outside that right now Haku has great normals, great passive game (due his metter gain) and a good options due his drive, right now the character has a lot of good stuff going for him, so it seems to me that they are trying to balance him in a way that he can still keep his good tools but giving him a weakness (one that in theory was the inherent one in his design).

Those 3 characters are still unique, because their tools and their gameplan is not the same as the other members of the cast, they still have their own goals (gameplay wise) on the game and their own ways to accomplish them, the difference is that they are trying to even the field addressing the rough points on their design/gameplan.

Edit

Another thing, i like the idea of the OD since instead of just tacking a x factor with common attributes across the cast, they are trying to add something that can help the gameplan and strategy of each character based on what they already have you need to see them not only as a buff mode, but as also that adds to each strategy, not only that, you also need to weight how to use your resources, do you want to burst or do you want to use the OD.

The same goes for the CT, not every character was able to capitalize damaging the primers (not something bad imo, but it is comprehensible that they want to even the field) so even when they all are given a similar option there is a strategy factor to be considered based on your resources, it use meter, something that is very valuable because it grants the character access to other options aswell, like better reversals, better damage options, etc, and different characters have different stuff that they want to do with say meter, so the decisions made around if you want to CT on your blockstring or not still has a different impact based on what each character wants to do.

Sorry for the wall of text btw, i have the bad habit on going on lengthy posts when trying to explain my POVs.

^

This post. This POST. THIS POST.

Everything in it is on point. And heca, there's nothing wrong with having a wall of text, it's better to have that then short points that don't clearly define your point of view. I only have one arguement.

And that is the thing, right now they are trying to balance the problems with the characters while keeping them unique on what they are supposed to do, they still have their weakness and the strong points, but at the same time they are giving them options to help their gameplan and strategy.

Tager is still a low mobile grappler, Hakumen is still a slow powerhouse with good defensive capabilities and Ara is still ara.

The lack of tools is not a good way to achieve uniqueness, imo, but a clear proportion on weakness and strong points is, all while trying to keep those 2 balanced considering the gameplan and strategy that the character is designed for.

You see, hakumen players' fear is that their either going to gimp his damage or defensive options. Which they have done in the past cs1>cs2, where he was a very bad character a slow character who hits moderately hard but nowhere as hard as the rtsd characters, so why use him? The change in his combos have us wondering what type of damage we can truly get off from his combos, yes it's nice to create new combo options for hakumen, but can it be done properly while still giving at least some of the benefits of his old combos (knockdown in the corner and corner carry) with the way his specials and normals work? Last time they changed hakumens combo system, it took them an extra game to correct it. Coupled with that fact that agito, his new special move, doesn't look particularly useful, then we have the issue of being able to block his drive. So some hakumen players (probably most) worry about his damage output with his new combo routes and "new feature" to his drive will ruin his design just like in cs2, and once again take another game to correct it.

[Hecatom]

You see, hakumen players' fear is that their either going to gimp his damage or defensive options. Which they have done in the past cs1>cs2, where he was a very bad character a slow character who hits moderately hard but nowhere as hard as the rtsd characters, so why use him? The change in his combos have us wondering what type of damage we can truly get off from his combos, yes it's nice to create new combo options for hakumen, but can it be done properly while still giving at least some of the benefits of his old combos (knockdown in the corner and corner carry) with the way his specials and normals work? Last time they changed hakumens combo system, it took them an extra game to correct it. Coupled with that fact that agito, his new special move, doesn't look particularly useful, then we have the issue of being able to block his drive. So some hakumen players (probably most) worry about his damage output with his new combo routes and "new feature" to his drive will ruin his design just like in cs2, and once again take another game to correct it.

It is natural to have concerns specially when the changes seem to be very drastic, but it was the 1st local test, they usually do this kind of extreme changes to test different ideas.

BTW i don't' know enough about of Hakumen to throw a valid opinion, but for what i have seen they are trying to balance him by allowing him to keep his great normals, and damage on single hits, while reducing his combo abilities and adding a risk on his counters, i am not going to say if it's a good change or not (only time will tell), and i don't know if all those changes would stay in the final release.

Balancing characters is not easy, specially because adding stuff while it can improve the viability of a character it can change the general idea of its design, right now Hakumen is a strong character (Nothing wrong with that), and for the current changes i feel that they are trying to tone him down in the line of the original design a slow defensive type character that relies on his resources to make damaging combos, but that can do good damage using his normals. Like i said, if is good or not, only time will tell, plus the changes wouldn't necessarily please a lot of the players, some players probably like more the new Hakumen compared to the previous one, while others would like to have him returning to his previous gameplan.

The other thing is that they are also trying to balance him (and the rest of the cast) by taking the OD in consideration, they are trying to make all the characters viable with their current tools and at the same time they are trying to make the OD a valid option to take in the strategy, but at the same time keeping it balanced and not making a mandatory thing to do.

One more thing, it is obvious that there would be things that would need to be changed, pus i am already expecting a revision some time later for new characters and balance changes.

I have this theory that they are going to release BBCP and in a time window of 6 months more or less they will announce the revision of P4A, and then doing the same for the revision of BBCP

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hecatom

[Airk]

It is natural to have concerns specially when the changes seem to be very drastic, but it was the 1st local test, they usually do this kind of extreme changes to test different ideas.

Or it could be like Extend Tsubaki, where everyone looked at the loktest changes and said "These are going to make her suck." and they stuck with them, and lo and behold, she's pretty much the bottom of the tier list. Yes, she's not as bad as initially thought, but they did keep a whole bunch of nerfs that really have no business being there.

BTW i don't' know enough about of Hakumen to throw a valid opinion, but for what i have seen they are trying to balance him by allowing him to keep his great normals, and damage on single hits, while reducing his combo abilities and adding a risk on his counters, i am not going to say if it's a good change or not (only time will tell), and i don't know if all those changes would stay in the final release.

The problem with "big damage on single hits" is that unless it's like, Gigantic Tager kind of damage, it generally ends up being "average/low damage for real, because his combos aren't very good". It's a combo based game - it doesn't really matter how much damage you get for pushing C once. What matters is how much damage you've done once you finish the combo.

Not saying Hakumen doesn't need a little bit of toning down, but as usual, Arc Sys seems to be going for the saw when they want the scalpel.

[mAc Chaos]

If they're going for CT style big damage Haku combos for a few moves, I would like it. But right now he's getting like 3k max and 4.5k in the corner for 6 stars from what we've seen. Of course it can change in the future, so we'll see. If it was going to go that CT route though, it used to take 2 stars to get 4k. It seems like right now they just are gimping his damage, which oddly enough might focus him more on zoning again.

[Hecatom]

Or it could be like Extend Tsubaki, where everyone looked at the loktest changes and said "These are going to make her suck." and they stuck with them, and lo and behold, she's pretty much the bottom of the tier list. Yes, she's not as bad as initially thought, but they did keep a whole bunch of nerfs that really have no business being there.

I know that there have been cases where some characters got the axe very hard than others (specially true for top tiers), but as you see, with every iteration, the nerfs seem to be less severe, plus the balance on the games have been getting better with each revision, so i have faith in them.

The problem with "big damage on single hits" is that unless it's like, Gigantic Tager kind of damage, it generally ends up being "average/low damage for real, because his combos aren't very good". It's a combo based game - it doesn't really matter how much damage you get for pushing C once. What matters is how much damage you've done once you finish the combo.

Not every character needs to do long combos or big damage on them to be viable, that is also part of the balance on the variety of the characters, Hakumen can do a good chunk of damage on single hits (and lets be honest, if he did something along the lines of a Tager buster it would be silly) he also gains his resources passively contrary to the rest of the cast, his normals have good range, and give him good options for a keep away game, his resources give him options to capitalize stray hits by making hit confirms, or shift the strategy and simply going in, and changing the momentum, his drive while risky is still a good answer for different situations that depending on the counter gives him different types of rewards.

It is only natural imo that they want to tone down some aspects of his current game, and keeping others while staying true to the idea behind of the design of the character.

BTW, as i said previously i, in any way, consider myself as an expert on Hakumen, or BB in general, i just pointing my impressions based on what i have seen so far and in a general way, mostly on a design perspective and on the balance of risk reward ratio, so if say some fallacies on my post, my bad, i don't mind to be corrected, on the contrary i would appreciate it

Not saying Hakumen doesn't need a little bit of toning down, but as usual, Arc Sys seems to be going for the saw when they want the scalpel.

I still feel that they are not as bad as other companies, yes they can fuck up sometimes, but at least have a better idea of what they are trying to do, imo.

If they're going for CT style big damage Haku combos for a few moves, I would like it. But right now he's getting like 3k max and 4.5k in the corner for 6 stars from what we've seen. Of course it can change in the future, so we'll see. If it was going to go that CT route though, it used to take 2 stars to get 4k. It seems like right now they just are gimping his damage, which oddly enough might focus him more on zoning again.

Pretty much what i think is what they are trying to do, also, keep in mind that there is the OD, and there are some changes that they are planning to do to it, so there are still stuff that we don't know that can potentially change our perception on how the characters are being handled.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hecatom

[Akira-Shiro]

Not every character needs to do long combos or big damage on them to be viable, that is also part of the balance on the variety of the characters, Hakumen can do a good chunk of damage on single hits (and lets be honest, if he did something along the lines of a Tager buster it would be silly) he also gains his resources passively contrary to the rest of the cast, his normals have good range, and give him good options for a keep away game, his resources give him options to capitalize stray hits by making hit confirms, or shift the strategy and simply going in, and changing the momentum, his drive while risky is still a good answer for different situations that depending on the counter gives him different types of rewards.

It is only natural imo that they want to tone down some aspects of his current game, and keeping others while staying true to the idea behind of the design of the character.

I agree with this 100%

As you said, he gets heat while standing completely still he has great pokes, and he in general has amazing defensive options. It is because of his defensive options that force majority of the players in the game to approach/pressure/bait alot differently when fighting him. People may disagree with me on this however iv always thought of Haku as one of the scariest to fight against in the game. His single hits do alot & are kinda fast to be C's (Jc & 4C) so poking him is kinda risky, he has 2 OH's that both do about 2k by themselves and one is extremely fast so its best not to let him pressure for to long. He gains heat for just sitting there so that he may spam more 2k OH's (I know he cant spam them, they cost 4 stars), an to put the icing on the cake he has counters to force people to end there pressure early and return to neutral if they dont get in on the first few hits.

With all of the options he has its kinda hard to not see why arks nerfed him. Trailing of iirc someone said something about Jin using ice blade and haku countering it, unfortunatly getting in on Haku with options like that doesnt work due to the counter being UB. With this new counter Haku has it actually puts emphasis on Hakus (Im only assuming) original design. I believe Mori truly wanted him to be the Neutral/counter type, the type of character who sits and waits for the opponent to make there move and with the proper reads/reaction Haku can blow any character up and becomes one of the most by far formidable characters in the game. However this was overlooked because haku's counters while they were not godlike put a serious tamper on alot of characters play styles. For instance Carl who is generally suppose to be the 'if u get caught u die' type of character. However due to hakus play style D's kinda blew up carls strong points, while at the same time we have the lowest Hp in the game and he hits for about 1k each time. TBH i think the counter was changed due to random D spamming and trying to punish with delay fatal would get u countered depending on which one he does. Now sure grabs due stop that, but then if the grab is broken ur automatically placed back at a disadvantage. Now the issue i explain tbh isnt that big but its the fraudulent part of this character, the part i think mori may have been trying to remove. An as for his damage, everyone kinda lost there midscreen combos Mori did say he was trying to make the combo's alot shorter. What i think he meant were some of the hitconfirms aka ragna 5a 5b 5D pickup turning into 5 second combos. SO i wouldnt worry to much about Haku, like someone had said earlier they are getting alot better at balancing out the characters with each installment.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Akira-Shiro

[SolxBaiken]

BlazBlue: Constant Posts

[Airk]

Not every character needs to do long combos or big damage on them to be viable, that is also part of the balance on the variety of the characters, Hakumen can do a good chunk of damage on single hits (and lets be honest, if he did something along the lines of a Tager buster it would be silly)

No, they don't all need to do long combos or big damage, but the point is the fact that a character "does a lot of damage when he pushes C" is irrelevant if everyone else in the game can do a combo for 150% of that, even though their C attack doesn't do anywhere near as much damage. All this gets you is a character that newbies like because they can do lots of damage without using combos, but who can't really compete at higher levels. Yes, it would be silly to do Tager Driver levels of damage with a button press, but that's the problem. Either the character needs to do combos to be competitive, in which case how much damage the individual attacks do is sortof irrelevant, or the character doesn't, in which case, well, bad things.

tldr; I don't think "Does a lot of damage with C attacks" is a meaningful advantage all by itself.

he also gains his resources passively contrary to the rest of the cast

This is sortof irrelevant if he can't turn those resources into damage - which some people seem to be asserting is a problem right now.

It is only natural imo that they want to tone down some aspects of his current game, and keeping others while staying true to the idea behind of the design of the character.

Definitely. His corner carry is loltastic, and his damage is pretty sick.

Anyway, I trust Mac's assessment on all things Hakumen related, so nothing much more to add on that subject, just a final comment: I realize Arc Sys has their heart in the right place with regard to balance, but I have philosophical issues with their seeming desire to arbitrarily and completely change things around with their updates, albeit only for some characters, and it's really kindof inexplicable as to which characters they decide to put in the blender each time. I guess they have some sort of platonic ideal of how each character "should" play, and so even if they're perfectly balanced with the rest of the cast, they get all sorts of arbitrary, weird changes in an effort to force people to play them the "right" way.

[Mumm-Ra]

Something that i want to know, what happens when both characters activate their overdrive.

I think there's a video showing that, they just overlay each other, so when character A's OD ends, character B's OD continues (if they have the same aumount of hp and didn't activate it at the same time I guess).

[Hecatom]

Suddenly the though of the Tager mirror becoming more silly makes me man moist >:3

Edited September 4, 2012 by Hecatom

[MetalMaelstrom]

What happens when two Tager's do j.360C at the same time when they're both magnetized? Do they just fly at each other and hug?

[Manta]

There's actually a rule when it comes to throw clashes, it seems to go against of person who last hit with an attack (Or had one blocked). Usually with green throws this just means you get an instant reject, but command throws can't be, so eh. j.360 may share Tager's other command throws in that they fix his momentum, preventing magnetism or wind from moving him.

[MetalMaelstrom]

There's actually a rule when it comes to throw clashes, it seems to go against of person who last hit with an attack (Or had one blocked). Usually with green throws this just means you get an instant reject, but command throws can't be, so eh. j.360 may share Tager's other command throws in that they fix his momentum, preventing magnetism or wind from moving him.

I hope you know that you just crushed my dreams of flying hugging in Tager mirrors. The hype would be unfathomable.

[FR05tB1t3 BOB]

So is there any info on when the next loketest is going to be?