[CP] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

[WolfCrimson]

"Tager General Forum: Game Mechanics Science edition"

[Isuna]

You might argue that ODs are a step towards homogenity, but at the same time, since they all do different things (Even though it's invariably more damage as a result) you can still call it more varied than say, X-Factor.

Well, it certainly is more unique than Gold Burst, and it definitely has more shit-my-pants-effect when someone activates it than Gold Burst ever had.

And that is a good thing.

Now he can finally do combos that start airborne and ground them and keep the combo going. Which is awesomesauce.

But he requieres a rapid right?

I'm just sad that you don't get to Gadget after it.

But I guess, he do get magnetism.

Also, on the Tager subject, limiting the options of a character for the sake of variety is not good.

True enough, but should we give Tager double jump as well?

"Tager General Forum: Game Mechanics Science edition"

I don't think Tager mind talking about "mechanics"

[Koopa_Klawz]

True enough, but should we give Tager double jump as well?

I'd like that.

[Tofu Warrior]

I would fucking love to hear Mike Z talk about designing grapplers.

Also I decided I love Atomic Collider > 2D >whiff GF. I realized that no matter which wake up option you choose, you'll get pulled toward Tager. If you neutral tech, you'll pop up right beside him. If you do nothing, try to quick rise or roll, you'll get pulled close enough where you're freshly magnetized and he can still make you guess.

Tager can put you in a variety of different scary situations now, the scariest being the magnetized Atomic Collider > whiff GF > cross-up. It isn't just Gadget Finger over and over again. It will be worth knowing frame perfect safe jump set ups/option selects in order to maximize our effectiveness.

[Hecatom]

True enough, but should we give Tager double jump as well?

Definitively, the only real reason why he doesn't have one is because ASW insist on forcing the magnetism gimmick as his primary way to close the gaps between him and his opponents, but truth be told, he needs more mobility options if they keep giving him tools that barely help him, like i said, limiting the options of a character for the sake of variety is dumb, there is not an intelligent reason of why he shouldn't have a double jump.

I can understand, he is a low mobile grappler, but if he is going to have that kind of disadvantage, then he needs to have all the tools to help him compensate it for that, specially if he is going to face opponents that can easily outzone him/ run away from him / have better tools overall.

Look at Potemkin, despite he is a low mobile grappler, he still has descent mobility options, and that is without counting all of his other amazing tools.

[Isuna]

What is it that Potemkin has that Tager doesn't? (have only played GG for like an hour, so I wouldn't know)

I for one love magnetism, Jakou and the Plant Arcana from AH3. I like to stand still in one spot and combo by pulling the opponent back.

Though, I have to agree that Tager has many weak match-ups by design, and powering him up to compensate for that would probably make him to strong in his other match-ups.

[STenSatsu]

The biggest thing is probably flick. It basically reflects a projectile and turns it into a massive slow moving wall that absorbs all projectiles and goes about a full screen length. It lets him freely walk toward somebody if he catches a projectile with it. Think of a slow spark bolt that can be used at anytime as long as somebody shoots a projectile at him.

That and a legit anti-air.

[Fluck]

Potemkin has so many more options it's crazy. He has slidehead, which is a full screen unblockable. You need to jump or backdash it. And he has Aegis Reflector as well. And he can super grab airborne opponents.

[Osuna]

FDB, Hammerfall, Slidehead and 6P all limit options for the opponent by just existing. With Tager you can still do most things as long as you don't get yomi'd. With pot, you just shouldn't do some things because they will be totally ineffective. Some mix ups don't work because hammerfall will beat both options, many projectiles can be FDB'd on reaction, including supers. Slidehead has upper body invincibility and doesn't care if you're behind him or full screen away, try to set up from full screen and you'll get knocked down. His mix up game is much safer and more rewarding than Tager's as well. He also has a better backdash, command throw, and overhead.

Also he can combo into throws.

[WolfCrimson]

Also he can combo into throws.

Sorry, but the throws don't do 100% damage. It's no different from Tager comboing into Grand Punish.

[Koopa_Klawz]

Don't forget, you can cancel Hammerfall before the active frames to make it much MUCH safer to use unlike Tager's sledge.

[Afro-Demon]

Pretty much everything Osuna said. Tager's kinda close to getting some like a pho hammerfall (6A), but hammerfall is so much better. Maybe if you could feint the hit and it have a bit better pull. Tager just lacks the threat of being the king of close range with terrible anti air (6P), no method of approach on fast characters (like slidehead and hammerfall), and no real good answer to zoning (FDB). And even of the options he does have only half of those lead to any respectable damage...with magnetism, which is a required first hit. God what I'd give for 214D to be like FDB...and for the Unlimited 4D with super armor on it. Don't get me wrong, I love Tager's concept of magnets, I just wish they would actually make him good with it and not just rock-paper-scissor gimmicks.

But enough about wishlists. So is the Nu matchup as depressing as I think it is?

[Koopa_Klawz]

So is the Nu matchup as depressing as I think it is?

Yep.

[Hecatom]

To add what Osuna said, Potemkin also has a better set of normals over all, also, he is a well designed character 1st and a grappler later, he doesn't rely only on his grabs, and even when he has poor mobility, he still has options that help him close the gap, and/or options that help him when he is in close range.

He also happens to get a good amount of tension just by walking forward, btw.

Don't get me wrong, i love playing with Tager, he is basically the only character that i use (weird considering that on GG i play Chipp/Testament ) but i would certainly love to see him be improved in some aspects, giving Tager a double jump and Cancelable/Feintable Sledges would help him imo.

Edit

Also, notice how the low mobile grapplers of other games still share a good portion of the mobility options of the other chars:

Potemkin has double jump and has stuff to compensate for his lack of ground dash.

Hugo, Zanguief, T. Hawk, Hakan can dash.

Kanji on P4A can run, air dash, double jump.

Mr. Heart on HNK can boost (from certain attaks at least) double jump.

Donvalve from Battle Fantasia can dash.

Orville on The Rumble Fish can dash.

Hideyoshi on SBX can run, air dash, double jump.

Clark, Maxima, Goro, etc from KOF can run, hop, super jump

Those characters still have some if not all the mobility options albeit slower than the rest of the cast.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Hecatom

[Isuna]

I see I see.

So with "Flick" basically, Potemkin can make a Fuumajin that moves towards opponent and doesn't end in two seconds?

And if it only works against opponents projectiles, I guess that is where Azraels reversal got inspiration from.

What is a better backdash than Tagers? Is it faster? More invulnerable?

With so many moves being feintable in CP, it wouldn't suprise me if you can cancel charged Bsledge in the next version.

I think Tager's orignal OD would had made quite a difference, can't believe they sacked it. : /

Speaking of dashing grapplers, I do remember unlimited Tager's running. : D

Wow, so the grapplers are only slower, not "worse" so to speak. BlazBlue is my first 2D fighter so it is my reference to everything else.

[Hecatom]

I think Tager's orignal OD would had made quite a difference, can't believe they sacked it. : /

I don't know man, the continuous magnetism pull sounds interesting, but there is also a lot of stuff to take in consideration, to get some real use of it, we should be low on health otherwise it wouldn't last enough time, it can potentially change the way that some combos work for the worse, also in theory could help on the bad matchups like Hazama, Tao and Valk only if the pull affect them when they are moving, if not there is not much real gain of it.

If it was the only change that he got (take in consideration that they always give something good but take other stuff away) with it he would still have the same type of problems when the opponent is attacking him up close.

TBH i kinda prefer this new overdrive because at least it can open new options of damage with the new properties on his normals and specials, also the old overdrive was basically what i complaint about, ASW forcing the magnetism gimmick as his only way to get damage/close the gap between him and his opponent.

[evilben]

giving tager a sledge break really would do wonders for him. one of the reasons hammer break was so good in GG was the ability to special cancel into hammerfall then break out of it and continue pressure (or go for a pot buster). how much shit could tager do if he could sledge through all the crap these characters throw then break it and be able to block any sort of punish.

in my mind, the two things tager needs to be a viable character are a double jump and that.

(also an air to air and/or and air to ground spark would be fun)

the OD is probably more useful for its invincibility and buffer time than anything else. while we will be able to do more damage in it that OD 720 looks so mean. also the freeze can give a nice second to see what your opponent is doing and react accordingly.

[Skye]

Sledge Feint sounds so evil.

But necessary.

[NumeroGaijin]

In Tager's OD they should have made his hammer part after sledge be faster like his unlimited form and make it become a true block string finally. This would help considerably in non mag combs midscreen possibly especially after the stupidity of what they did to AC out aside for the corner. They probably should have made all his blocked moves depending on their level take off a bigger amount of barrier to make him more scary with and outside of mag so that even if they block our mixup in OD at least we can get something out of the deal. It feels that arcsys is saying hey Tager's....we aren't gonna change your problems ever so just save your od for 720s or spark in order to win. So far outside of better combos and combo damage all we can legitimately (so far) use our OD for is for seemingly free 720s.

[NumeroGaijin]

Sorry to double but can someone please tell me why Makoto 3C through 2D and 4D

EDIT: Guess Asledge is still 5a-able on block. Makoto seemed like she timed it frame perfect. So I am guessing that most players don't try to interrupt after its done because the window is too small to hit consistently and could lead to possible 360 opportunity for Tager

Edited December 14, 2012 by NumeroGaijin

[Airk]

Am I the only one who feels like 50% of Tager's problems aren't problems with "Tager" so much as problems with the fact his mechanic doesn't WORK RIGHT in several of his bad matches?

Fix the fact that magnetism basically doesn't work on Tao/Hazama/Valk/(Litchi) and you've fixed half of his bad matches without making him a super unfun experience for the members of the cast that already have to go in and play with him.

[Darlos9D]

What Airk said, totally. I fucking hate how magnetism is flat-out nullified in a lot of cases. Airk's listed characters are the big offenders, but even stupid crap like not being able to pull Hazama on Houtenjin's recovery drive me up a goddamn wall.

I mean, magnetism is SUPPOSED to be Tager's solution to his own lack of mobility. But it's like... imagine if you were playing as Ragna and you literally couldn't move any closer to a character while they were doing certain actions. Like, there was an invisible wall that held you in place until they completed that action. That's how retarded it is.

On that note: while a sledge break would be awesome, I've often proposed a break on a magnetism move, such as 6A. So it'd be something of a reverse hammer fall, where instead of you going towards them, they get pulled towards you, and then you can immediately cancel to neutral at any moment while pulling them. Of course, that would still suffer from the above problem and not help when they weren't magnetized, but I figured it'd fit more with his theming.

Maybe let us use GF whenever? That already recovers really fast. I dunno.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Darlos9D

[NumeroGaijin]

If we could gadget when wanted to omg that would be crazy and awesome but it maybe to strong due to how strong gadget pull really is. Gadget is probably the strongest magnetic pull move we have. Imagine you gadget someone they then backdash and you are unable to catch them and once out of your range they jump you gadget and they would immediately hit the ground and head towards you......hmmmm actually that wouldn't be broken at all. That would make it a lot more legit. There probably would not be any float around past us as much and honestly it actually may stop ice car in its tracks totally and "GIVE US FREE" magnetism. Arcsys petition time. In return they would nerf TB and GETB damage more.

[mAc Chaos]

They should just make GETB do 10k and get it over with. Problem solved.

[YukiBlue]

They should just make GETB do 10k and get it over with. Problem solved.

qft