[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[king of heart]

https://twitter.com/GOOD_NEMO/status/440645864394997761

just so my wehhing for like 3 pages doesn't unjustified, nemo thinks potemkin is shit tier.

it's been a week lol.

Lol at Ogawa's replay

[Destin]

I am almost sure I saw a sol combo that went something like blah blah H gunflame Yrc S BB ect. With the YRC during hitstun.

[Delrian]

I am almost sure I saw a sol combo that went something like blah blah H gunflame Yrc S BB ect. With the YRC during hitstun.

I'd love to see a link, otherwise I'm not sure I'd believe it.

[Final Ultima]

We don't have the hard frame data yet, but I'm working on the assumption that yrc frames are from start to last frame before active frames begin, and the red purple window begins there. You can yrc projectiles and have them come out and hit, but there is no situation where a move would combo and still have a yrc window. You can however do yrcs in resets and guard strings. An example would be ky doing a string that ends in f.s and canceling fs into cse. He could get the yrc because his opponent will leave block stun before the cse yrc point to yrc it so the projectile comes out, allowing him to continue pressure.

elvenshadow mentioned earlier that you can attack little eddie with a normal and yrc, which implies some (if not all?) of the active frames are yrc'able.

The window for Yellow Roman Cancel definitely extends through at least some of a move's active frames, yes. For instance: Most projectiles can be YRC'd while they're already in motion. But yes, as stated, you cannot perform a Yellow Roman Cancel mid-combo, at least based on what we know.

[ElvenShadow]

Haha thanks for the updates and feed back everyone...next question:

I'm wondering if u can yrc a special just before impact but the move still connect? It might be far fetched...but just a random question..I've seen some vids but really haven't been paying attn to it like that...

and at least there are rules so u can't just ik in the middle of the match...I was gonna say..they turned gg into iv's comeback mechanics but only w ik's lol...that wuld suck

Here's how it works....

Each move has different YRC windows. Some you can YRC on active frames, some only on startup frames. It all depends on the move. The only thing that determines if a YRC ends up red is if the opponent is in hit or block stun. The only thing that makes it purple is if they aren't and you cancel after YRC window.

To answer Mario's question, yes you can but it depends on the move and your distance to the opponent and it would only HIT them after the YRC if it was a projectile. For other moves, once you cancel, the hit box is already gone.

You could have projectiles YRC right before hit, but you would just need to be at the right distance from the opponent. If you try it and you are too far, you will get purple because you would have to wait too long for the projectile to reach them.

Regarding IK combos, one thing to keep in mind is that they have to have flashing health. If you do a huge combo on them that puts them below the percentage of life bar that causes flashing (say 15% or whatever it actually is), their health won't stop flashing until AFTER the combo is finished. So, you can't do a huge combo on someone into IK unless they were already flashing BEFORE you started the combo. Honestly it doesn't seem so bad.

[Destin]

I'd love to see a link, otherwise I'm not sure I'd believe it.

It's ok not to believe, I won't be offended. But you only get to not believe me once.

I wouldn't be surprised if it related to being in hitstun from the move, not just the state itself. In the ain-Mugen match, I know ky does a few sweep stun edge RC's, are they red or yellow?

[axel]

I really hope they include FRCs in the next update. Just make FRCs the same as older games, within 2-3 frame windows regardless of during startup, active or recovery frames and keep all the new YRCs and PRCs as they are. Kinda missing good ol' Gunflame FRC combos, Chemical Love FRC combos and Stinger Aim FRC combos. Not to mention Hammerfall FRC pressure.

[Casper]

I really hope they include FRCs in the next update. Just make FRCs the same as older games, within 2-3 frame windows regardless of during startup, active or recovery frames and keep all the new YRCs and PRCs as they are. Kinda missing good ol' Gunflame FRC combos, Chemical Love FRC combos and Stinger Aim FRC combos. Not to mention Hammerfall FRC pressure.

i thought about this for a bit and came to the conclusion that while i think its really unlikely, it wouldn't hurt much and would just make make things a bit more interesting/raise the skill ceiling. i guess the risk would be that we'd get to a place where 25% meter options were almost always better than their 50% meter counterparts again but hellfire mode has allowed supers to actually deal considerable damage so maybe that kind of thing could be avoided.

i like the new stuff too though.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Casper

[Hintalove]

It's ok not to believe, I won't be offended. But you only get to not believe me once.

I wouldn't be surprised if it related to being in hitstun from the move, not just the state itself. In the ain-Mugen match, I know ky does a few sweep stun edge RC's, are they red or yellow?

They are red.

[axel]

i thought about this for a bit and came to the conclusion that while i think its really unlikely, it wouldn't hurt much and would just make make things a bit more interesting/raise the skill ceiling. i guess the risk would be that we'd get to a place where 25% meter options were almost always better than their 50% meter counterparts again but hellfire mode has allowed supers to actually deal considerable damage so maybe that kind of thing could be avoided.

i like the new stuff too though.

25% meter options should always be better. Take for instance in Xrd I-no can only do her standard Chemical Love combos if she has 50% meter to RC, but if her Chemical Love FRC point is added in, people who make an effort to practise the FRC timing would be able to do it with 25% meter cost. For those who can't, they'll just have to settle for 50% RC combos.

Nemo's tier list is a clear indicator that characters who were super reliant on FRCs in older games are considerably weaker in Xrd due to lack of meter for RC combos when they land a hit.

[Laban]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23018145

Based on this stuff though, it looks like I-no has more ways to convert meterlessly without the need of FRC points. So characters that were more reliant on FRCs in older games seem to be adjusted to have better meterless options in order to compensate for the lack of FRC combos. I'd take Nemo's tier list with a grain of salt since not all meterless options have been found out nor have the new tools been fully utilized or explored. Venom is supposedly low tier, but I just have a feeling that not enough people have really taken the time to really bring out his potential other than what little we saw of HEVEN within the first 5 days or so. Even HEVEN didn't fully utilize what Venom has in store. So we can't really say right now that the "supposed" weaker character are weak, and that they're "supposedly" weak because they lost their "important" FRC options. It's too early for a claim like that.

[king of heart]

I really hope they include FRCs in the next update. Just make FRCs the same as older games, within 2-3 frame windows regardless of during startup, active or recovery frames and keep all the new YRCs and PRCs as they are. Kinda missing good ol' Gunflame FRC combos, Chemical Love FRC combos and Stinger Aim FRC combos. Not to mention Hammerfall FRC pressure.

Same here

[Pichy]

Nemo's tier list is a clear indicator that characters who were super reliant on FRCs in older games are considerably weaker in Xrd due to lack of meter for RC combos when they land a hit.

Pot isn't bad because he lost Hammerfall FRC. The loss of an amazing frametrap is certainly a big nerf, but not enough to make him suffer so much. The two key nerfs that really kill him are the loss of the old 6K and 5P now whiffing on crouchers. These are devastating to his pressure after knockdowns.

Without 6K his mixup is now simply meaty/throw instead of high/low/throw. Opponents can now hold down-back, wait for a startup animation to occur then jump. Sure he can do heat grab on their wakeup, but this is putting the onus on the Potemkin player to make the ballsy guesses instead of his opponent. It's also an indirect nerf to slidehead as there's now nothing with visual similarity.

Without 5P his fastest normal can't keep the opponent from running away as much. There's no reason to respect Pot anymore because all of his offense is a series of coin flips instead of an even scarier version of the classic Slayer mixups.

As for your remark about 25 meter options, no they should not be always better. If that's the case, why even have 50 meter options? If you have 25 meter options as tools for neutral and defense versus higher meter cost options leading to the big damage/position advantages (which the current RC and supers do), then there's some actual decision-making required by the player as to how they should use their meter. Is it more important to try getting in now, or should you find another way in and used the meter gained from your smarter use of movement to hit hard? Don't you think that's more interesting in a game that is played against another human being?

Of course I miss FRCs on hit. I miss Pot's frametraps. I miss Hdrill unblockable. I miss the insanity that is Haircar FRC. This is a new game that's taking a different tack with how to use meter and RCs in general. There's nothing to stop you from playing AC+R if that's not what you're after, just as there's no reason to play SF4 with its godly EX moves and FADC if you'd rather do target combo into shippu jinrai kyaku in 3S.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Pichy

[Vashimus]

25% meter options should always be better. Take for instance in Xrd I-no can only do her standard Chemical Love combos if she has 50% meter to RC, but if her Chemical Love FRC point is added in, people who make an effort to practise the FRC timing would be able to do it with 25% meter cost. For those who can't, they'll just have to settle for 50% RC combos.

Nemo's tier list is a clear indicator that characters who were super reliant on FRCs in older games are considerably weaker in Xrd due to lack of meter for RC combos when they land a hit.

Then what's the point of even having the RC options? If the FRC gives me the exact same result for half the meter, there would be no reason not to practice it. Having the RC there would serve no purpose.

If you notice, most characters have been given new moves or a new super to compensate for their lack of FRCs/forcebreaks. It's pretty clear ArcSys wanted to up the importance of 50% meter options, because it doesn't make sense to spend more meter on an inferior option. The FRC being harder to land becomes irrelevant at higher level play.

Also, what makes you think the game is so shallow that we know everything about it after 2 weeks? Because that's what going off super early tier lists means.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Vashimus

[Delrian]

If you have 25 meter options as tools for neutral and defense versus higher meter cost options leading to the big damage/position advantages (which the current RC and supers do), then there's some actual decision-making required by the player as to how they should use their meter. Is it more important to try getting in now, or should you find another way in and used the meter gained from your smarter use of movement to hit hard? Don't you think that's more interesting in a game that is played against another human being?

RCs and supers are still used in AC and +R despite the number of 25 meter options available, because the 25 meter options do not cover all of the scenarios you want. Yes, FRCs and FBs are more cost effective than RCs and Supers in those games, so you see them far more frequently, but that is a balancing issue with the movesets (and maybe the FRC mechanic in comparison to RC's limitations) rather than varying levels of meter options. Rather than seeing the meter management decision between half on getting in or half on combos, the 25 meter options provide more alternatives to the situation, which makes it more fun imo.

[50-50罠]

Del i never that was his point i was trying to.assure mario it wasnt, so stop being a nazi and captain kirk bro.

P.s Del you need to play me in +r, and Mario if you got +r I want to play you too. Haven't played you since i left omaha in 03.

Sent from my SCH-R530M using Tapatalk

Edited March 4, 2014 by 50-50罠

[Xtra_Zero]

As I play more, I find myself wanting some general things:

- More damage on supers

- More magnified damage scaling (I wish the first hit did more damage and the last hit did less)

- Less pushback on both hits and blocks

- More RISC crankability

[Justice7541]

While we're on the topic of supers, is it just me or are a lot of the supers really underwhelming now? They were fine when they were just preceded by a little flash but with the new cinematic cut-ins it makes you expect some super anime 50-hit SF4 ultra shit. Then you just get a slightly bigger fireball after all the buildup.

[Delrian]

Del i never that was his point i was trying to.assure mario it wasnt, so stop being a nazi and captain kirk bro.

P.s Del you need to play me in +r, and Mario if you got +r I want to play you too. Haven't played you since i left omaha in 03.

Sent from my SCH-R530M using Tapatalk

Can't quite make out what you're trying to say there, but I'm gonna try to make it to casuals on Friday so we can play then.

[youcanwonder]

Thank you for the clarification Mike appreciate it

Here's how it works....

Each move has different YRC windows. Some you can YRC on active frames, some only on startup frames. It all depends on the move. The only thing that determines if a YRC ends up red is if the opponent is in hit or block stun. The only thing that makes it purple is if they aren't and you cancel after YRC window.

To answer Mario's question, yes you can but it depends on the move and your distance to the opponent and it would only HIT them after the YRC if it was a projectile. For other moves, once you cancel, the hit box is already gone.

You could have projectiles YRC right before hit, but you would just need to be at the right distance from the opponent. If you try it and you are too far, you will get purple because you would have to wait too long for the projectile to reach them.

Regarding IK combos, one thing to keep in mind is that they have to have flashing health. If you do a huge combo on them that puts them below the percentage of life bar that causes flashing (say 15% or whatever it actually is), their health won't stop flashing until AFTER the combo is finished. So, you can't do a huge combo on someone into IK unless they were already flashing BEFORE you started the combo. Honestly it doesn't seem so bad.

[youcanwonder]

50 send me a friend request bro i play on both systems so it don't matter .

As to the frc comment..that is why i was wo during about the yrc..If timed correctly you could use it as a frc. But i understand why they took them out..they trying to make the game easier for newcomers...do i agree no..In my eyes it's just practicing..like ppl practicing 1fr links and what not..but it's gg...that's all that matters is adapt lol

[4r5]

FRC, along with ForceBreaks, was always a dangerous mechanic. Every additional FRC they add to the game must have put a heavy burden on playtesting. #R Dizzy's IceSpike FRC, not counting what she could do with it outside of combos, was a combo extender (like a RC) and did hefty damage (like a super), that's two 50% meter effects for just 25% meter. What a deal! AC Slayer's Big Bang Upper is a more recent example.

If Guilty Gear had a more symmetrically designed cast, you'd probably notice how overbearing a good FRC or FB really was. But stuff like Bite Loops, Eddie unblockables, and Lvl5 Stun Edges were always in the forefront. If you take SF4 as an example, chars that could FADC in to their ultra rose quickly. You could see it in AC as the game dragged on. The A and B tiers all had a good FRC or FB or two. The C and D tiers had sub par FRC's and FB's. Either not useful as a combo extender, or not enough damage. If I-No's ChemLoves or Johnny's JackHounds did twice the damage, that alone would probably propel them up a tier or two.

A good FRC/FB goes a long way. If I'm playing a char that doesn't have any good ones, against a char with good ones, I have to wait till my 50% before I can contend with your 25%. That means you get yours sooner than I get mine, I might of even given you your 25% from just comboing you. Then at full bar, I only have two supers/deadangles to your 4 FRC/FB's or 1 super/deadangle and 2 FRC/FB's. This is why everything in Xrd concerning combo extending and damage is 50%, and everything outside is 25%. If they went deeper in to why they revamped the RC system, they'd probably say the samething.

[SuperJ]

snip

you know, now i can't help but think potemkin was destined for failure in xrd. ironically, it's because 25% meter options might be too good. more specifically, yrc heavily favors characters attacking in tandem with projectiles (sol, ky...) and time slow allows them to randomly convert neutral situations into advantageous ones. e.g. what does pot do against max range gunflame yrc other than block (perfect for sol)? are you willing to risk getting CH'd by a physical attack trying to flick? maybe counter yrc solves the problem? iono. not to say that zato and faust trash pot because of yrc but it's certainly not helping his case

[king of heart]

you know, now i can't help but think potemkin was destined for failure in xrd.

Unless he was wearing red.

[h0mebas3]

Sorry for a n00b question (converting from UMVC3 learning +R), but I'm curious about something button wise from the experts. When hitting "P" in standard layout to people typically use their thumb or forefinger? I'm learning a whole new set of muscle memory so I want to do it right Thanks.