[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Airk]

I suppose it all comes down to how much is too much. Kokonoe wouldn't be too much in a game where everyone had access to unblockable setups and amazing normals and whatever broken thing you can think of etc. but I don't think a game like that would be entertaining to watch or play.

I don't think even Valk is too much (are we using him as the standard for 'top tier but not Kokonoe'?); But I think he's skirting the edges, so it might not be a bad idea to tone him down a little gently while other people are brought up. Same for the rest of the S - tier. (Litchi/Hazama/Tao). But any more 'unnecessary' than that and the game becomes silly. (The aforementioned 'everyone is as absurd as Kokonoe' game.)

[NecroTheReaper]

Hazama has way too many moves to reset pressure with. Valk I don't really know how he would change and litchi just needs more situational combos than "everything leads to corner oki". Same case with Tao. Though I don't know how.to change them since I don't kmow what would kill them if removed.

[Airk]

Hazama has way too many moves to reset pressure with. Valk I don't really know how he would change and litchi just needs more situational combos than "everything leads to corner oki". Same case with Tao. Though I don't know how.to change them since I don't kmow what would kill them if removed.

Dreize had an excellent post on, of all things, the SRK BB forum about ways Valk could be toned down to be non-stupid without fundamentally f-ing up his design, so I defer to that, but a few:

Remove the ability to cancel out of rasen-wolf startup

Remove wolf cancel properties from some human normals

Reduce frame advantage on 6B/6C

Reduce hitstun on [w]j.A

Etc. There are lots of small, tampering things that could be applied gently to reduce his capabilities while keeping his basic design intact. I'm sure the same kind of things can work for Litchi. Hazama is relatively easy to fix - make his normals less absurd and you're pretty much there, though it'd be nice if he had ANY special moves that you can punish him for. (Yeah, yeah, Gashoukyaku is -22. It's still stupid hard to punish due to pushback.). Making Resenga -2 or something instead of freaking PLUS (c'mon, really? a 19 frame overhead that moves you forward, can be combo'd from, gives you frame advantage on block and happens out of the same state as a 21 frame low? Really guys? This is okay? On a character with a +1 on block 2A?) Tao... I dunno enough about how Tao works, but I have confidence that a person who knows Tao well could find some.

This stuff really isn't rocket science, it's just a question of gently nudging things and seeing what results it gives.

[Putin]

Hazama has way too many moves to reset pressure with. Valk I don't really know how he would change and litchi just needs more situational combos than "everything leads to corner oki". Same case with Tao. Though I don't know how.to change them since I don't kmow what would kill them if removed.

Hazama's 2A and 5B are not what make him particularly good imo.

In this game they're often rendered useless because of the extreme pushback and his lack of range in melee; if you watch top Hazamas you'll most often see them going for 3C frame traps which pretty much translates to end of pressure.

He used to be much, much better in this area in previous iterations. He could stay in your face all day even if you barriered, and had three jump cancellable on block moves instead of one.

Now you can say no to him just by barrier blocking a couple of his moves, the only advantage in this area is that he has potentially better reward without meter if he happens to hit you point blank. He also has 50 meter to confirm hits into real damage much more rarely.

Comboable Ressenga is too good though but easily mashable.

If he had Orochi in CSEX people would never try to mash his stance mixup because he'd always be in range for the throw super to work, which has invul frames.

Also, Airk, you should take into consideration Jasetsu startup which is 7 frames. This translates to a 26f OH and a 28f low.

Don't misunderstand me though, Haz is definitely up there for various reasons.

[Lucalibur]

Gently nudge them with tactical nukes!

But seriously, I'm less for 'reducing the amount of things Valk can go into wolf form from' and more into 'removing the stupid 50\50s and making Wolf meter actually worth managing'. I think human Valk is just fine the way he is other than 6C, which needs less frame advantage and more reward on hit. Valk is only as stupid as he is because wolf form mixups are outright unreactable and the wolf gauge simply does not require enough management. I suppose removing some of Wolf form's INV frame bullshits like mentioned a few pages ago is also an option, though personally I would rather just see those crazy, free mixups gone.

I agree with the Hazama changes other than the 'specials you can punish him for' part. He needs less frame advantage for sure, though. Stance overhead should be neutral on block and only positive if the powered up version is done. 236D should either be neutral or between -2 and -4., so that it ain't as free as it is now.

Litchi needs a bit less...everything. She is just way too good at everything. Too many defensive options, pressure is too strong, damage is too good, too much utility everywhere...The fact she has been such a solid character ever since CS1 proves that, though I would be mad if she ended up low tier or anything.

Meanwhile I would also like to see repeat proration added to Mu's J.2C. Fuck those relaunches. That or she can't follow it up as easily as she can now. It feels stupid that she can J.2C you from half screen into the sky and still run up and float you with 2B. That is really the only change I want with Mu though she is obviously not S tier or anything. Give her an air combo ender or whatever to make up for that, I guess.

idk shit about Tao either so I won't say much, other than she is a bitch.

Other than those? Buff the lower tier chars a little, and make Azrael even more hilariously hammy and hype to watch.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Lucalibur

[Airk]

Also, Airk, you should take into consideration Jasetsu startup which is 7 frames. This translates to a 26f OH and a 28f low.

No, this is not really true. Sure, he has to go into stance first, but he hasn't COMITTED to anything yet, so you can't adjust your block. You have 19 frames to notice that he has gone for the high, or 21 to notice the low. All you know before that is "Oh, he's going to do stance mixup now." so you can't include that in your reaction times. If he had to go into one stance to do a high, and a different stance to do a low, and they were visibly different, THEN it would be the equivalent of 26/28, but since both moves come from the same point, for purposes of reaction, they're still 19/21.

[D.R.F.]

Max azrael nonesense oh gawd lol.

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[Errol]

for whether you can block it, yeah, but for whether you can mash out or upback, it is rather different. he's still good, of course..

[Stellarcircle5]

I am definitely a fan of how civilized this Valk discussion is, it usually turns into something much worse. Although I'm not so sure about the talk of removing his 50/50 mixiups. His oki is the trademark of his gameplay, Removing it would sort of defeat he purpose of his design. It would be like removing magnetism from Tager or making Ragna's footsie game trash. There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere. Although I will wholeheartedly agree that Valk is a bit better than he needs to be, though IMO the other top tiers save for Hazama have way way more versatility, making them more ridiculous.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Stellarcircle5

[NecroTheReaper]

But them he could always just frame trap with 214D~B. Almost every form of mixup is available in stance bar crossup. High, low, command grab, and invincible frame trap.

[Dreize]

I think human Valk is just fine the way he is other than 6C, which needs less frame advantage and more reward on hit..

This is by and large a buff. The pushback on 6C is awful and it doesn't gatling into anything, Valkenhayn players typically don't get much pressure afterwards anyways. A frame advantage nerf is fine though.

I mean sure he only gets a combo off of it in the corner, but a damage buff is just unnecessary.

If you're getting less than 3.7k off of Valkenhayn's 6C in 2014 you're doing it wrong. Sure it doesn't compare to his 5k meterless in Extend, but 3.7k is more than adequate for CP.

[D.R.F.]

I am definitely a fan of how civilized this Valk discussion is, it usually turns into something much worse. Although I'm not so sure about the talk of removing his 50/50 mixiups. His oki is the trademark of his gameplay, Removing it would sort of defeat he purpose of his design. It would be like removing magnetism from Tager or making Ragna's footsie game trash. There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere. Although I will wholeheartedly agree that Valk is a bit better than he needs to be, though IMO the other top tiers save for Hazama have way way more versatility, making them more riculous.

Yea like not all that much needs to be changed. He gets like 3.4-3.8 off a 5c which is nice, but a lot of his bnbs are ass in terms of dmg. Honestly arcsys definitely did a good job, unlike the 4k+ nonsense I heard in the past

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[Putin]

Gasshou has been really gimped as an actual tool. Many normals will make it whiff since it doesn't seem to have a hitbox below a certain height, and you need 50 meter to make it safe. No Hazama's going to waste 50 meter into that.

Also, what Errol said. If you just stand there then yes, you actually have to block a 19f OH, but that's not the only option the game gives you. It's plenty of time to mash out or upback. Hell, Hakumen can even throw out a 3C and hit both Zaneiga and Ressenga even when he's out of Gasshou's range.

Stance mixup is the last thing one should be worried about when dealing with Hazama. Jasetsu's actually one of the main things most players are always looking out for since it's a great opportunity for them to punish.

[Lucalibur]

This is by and large a buff. The pushback on 6C is awful and it doesn't gatling into anything, Valkenhayn players typically don't get much pressure afterwards anyways. A frame advantage nerf is fine though.

I mean sure he only gets a combo off of it in the corner, but a damage buff is just unnecessary.

If you're getting less than 3.7k off of Valkenhayn's 6C in 2014 you're doing it wrong. Sure it doesn't compare to his 5k meterless in Extend, but 3.7k is more than adequate for CP.

True, but I was working under the theory of 'who ever gets hit by this thing?', so I don't see getting 4K out of it as a bad thing.

[TD]

I want two things for rachel.

A better lotus. A lotus sucks butt. There are not a lot of practical uses for it, and then it drops combos more. It should be like its younger brother b lotus. Dunno what it would get though, maybe give extra properties or detonate or something.

And OD to give extra properties. Extra wind is don't get me wrong, the best thing rachel could have gotten. But looking at others seem to get all these upgrade and it makes me feel jelly.

[bakahyl]

Gently nudge them with tactical nukes!

Meanwhile I would also like to see repeat proration added to Mu's J.2C. Fuck those relaunches. That or she can't follow it up as easily as she can now. It feels stupid that she can J.2C you from half screen into the sky and still run up and float you with 2B. That is really the only change I want with Mu though she is obviously not S tier or anything. Give her an air combo ender or whatever to make up for that, I guess.

Then you ought to give her some other tool to make her combo's work because giving her j.2c a SMP (she already has a SMP on 6b, 6c , SoD and her dp) would mean that most of her combo's will be cut incredible short

J.2c has a very good hitbox but a 21f startup and 10f landing recovery. So the higher it's used, the more punishable it gets.

edit: while we are at the topic of OD because of TD's post, just buff the OD of the majority of the cast. Most of the OD's are very lackluster

Edited February 6, 2014 by bakahyl

[gamester]

And OD to give extra properties. Extra wind is don't get me wrong, the best thing rachel could have gotten. But looking at others seem to get all these upgrade and it makes me feel jelly.

Wind Regen in the air as well as ground during OD would be helpful.

[FinalDoomGuy]

Wind Regen in the air as well as ground during OD would be helpful.

Honestly, I'd just love it if they made some way of getting bang's OD buffs (just fu rin ka zan, none of the "stop them from bursting" shit) to last for the rest of the round, or hell, even get ragna to lose his health when he ODs like pre-CP.

I mean, it's a terrible idea, but that flavour though :C

[D.R.F.]

even get ragna to lose his health when he ODs like pre-CP.

I mean, it's a terrible idea, but that flavour though :C

Why?;/

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[BloodWolF]

And We're in for EVO. Let's start practicing.

[D.R.F.]

WOOOO!!!!!

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[Stellarcircle5]

That feel when college student. No evo for me

[Liminal18]

Congrats on getting into EVO CP hoop dust loop takes the gold.

[Litherain-XIII]

it be nice to have a college teacher sponser an A student to go to EVO and if he makes top 16 the student will be given a 20,000 dollar grant for college

[Master Of Chaos]

Bitchin. I'll be seeing you all there. Hypeeeeeee~!