[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Appledash-]

Why isn't this discussion about Xrd's visual style taking place in the Xrd forum lol

A 3d amane would be amazing.

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Edited March 2, 2014 by Appledash-

[Beautiful Death]

I'm so sad about Mori wanting Blazblue to go to models like Xrd. I already loathe GG going to models, BB going too would be just too much. Sprites >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> models, I don't give a damn how good the models are.

Lol does it matter when the 3d models look damn near 3d anyway. Talking about Xrd here. You really don't care if the models look super godly and are really difficult to tell apart from sprites in the end anyway? Just simply 3d=bad 2d=good

I saw it coming, but if sprites in fighters go away, i'm just done. Just 100% done. Models ruined SF4, ruined Marvel, the 3D KOF games aren't as good, etc. I'm not even going to bother playing fighters anymore if ALL of them will be models now.

So I guess graphics are king, huh?

Also about BlazBlue's graphics. Can you even call them true sprites. Because for BB the dudes use 3d models and trace over then retouch or whatever. Not even going to get into KoF13's "sprites."

http://shoryuken.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/blazblue2.jpg

http://caddie.smeenet.org/kof13/raiden/raiden02.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MFz0z7jVEKU/S8bpLkHrg0I/AAAAAAAAAEw/BX1saA98cIA/s1600/340x.gif

[Isuna]

I don't mind the 3D models, I mind the pointless camera swings.

[TekkamanArk]

Stuff

Basically, 2D fighters should stay 2D sprites, and 3D fighters should have 3D models. The visual style is one-half of the appeal, the other being gameplay style. 2.5D shouldn't even exist, and all it says is "we don't care about 2D, so we're going to do some half-assed 2D".

Also, someone posted something about DMC yesterday. I admit to hating new Dante's look, but, I tried the game anyway. I have far bigger problems than aesthetic for DMC.

[Luminos564]

2.5D shouldn't even exist, and all it says is "we don't care about 2D, so we're going to do some half-assed 2D".

See, now I'm gonna have to stop you right there because I played the hell out of both Wild Arms 3 and Hard Corps Uprising, both of which are classified as 2.5D games and I am glad that I got a chance to play them. I can respect your stance, but I hope you have more of a reason to back up your "no 2.5D period" beyond personal opinion.

[TekkamanArk]

See, now I'm gonna have to stop you right there because I played the hell out of both Wild Arms 3 and Hard Corps Uprising, both of which are classified as 2.5D games and I am glad that I got a chance to play them. I can respect your stance, but I hope you have more of a reason to back up your "no 2.5D period" beyond personal opinion.

Not sure how Wild Arms 3 is 2.5D, and I loved both of those games (Wild Arms 2 beat 3 for me though, Lord Blazer still stands as one of gaming's more epic moments to me), but yes, it's all personal opinion. I only honestly mind it in fighters.

[D.R.F.]

That was mainly just a collection of win poses and super attacks. I was specifically referring to the character models and animations in the cuts scenes of the video to address the part where he said "From my point of view, making anime characters into 3D models that look good would be very difficult, especially cell-shading and hair movement." With Xrd they succeeded in doing just that and it will only get better as it will be very easy for them to continue to further improve upon the character models and animations at any time for future updates.

Absolutely Blazblue is the best quality looking 2d fighter ever made but to me Xrd actually managed to matches that quality from what ive seen so far.

Skullgirls is a strong competitor in great looking 2d fighter, matter of fact i like it more (bbcp still has amazing sprite work not taking anything away from arcsys). Kof is there too. XRD looks absolutely gorgeous though, its faithfully designed and in battle, things flow like water, just like in XX (if maybe a bit slower)

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[Tong]

Instead of bashing 3D/2.5D, why not see the advantages of them over sprites?

[Dreiko]

The Xrd style graphics enable transformations such as Sol's Dragon Form. If you ever wanted to fight with Valk in his wolf form, Tsubaki with angel wings all around her, Ragna with scythe as a primary weapon etc. etc. they are your only hope. While I do think sprites are ultimately more detalied, the opportunities that arise with Xrd style graphics are undeniably superior.

[TagerTime]

Skullgirls is a strong competitor in great looking 2d fighter, matter of fact i like it more (bbcp still has amazing sprite work not taking anything away from arcsys). Kof is there too. XRD looks absolutely gorgeous though, its faithfully designed and in battle, things flow like water, just like in XX (if maybe a bit slower)

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While i think skullgirls is a very good game and has great high quality HD sprite work, most people including myself just don't like the overall Art style of the game. The game would be that much more popular if it didn't use an overal artstyle that most would be players find unappealing and a turn off.

[TekkamanArk]

Instead of bashing 3D/2.5D, why not see the advantages of them over sprites?

I'm not bashing 3D games in that I think models are just fine for those. That's their purpose. I much rather play a 2D game, but, there are some 3D fighters I play too, like Tekken and Soul Calibur.

As for the advantage of 2.5D? It's cheaper and faster to produce, that's about the only advantage. That said, it also generally means slower animations, and unnecessary camera angles or etc on supers that just scream "i'm charging up, don't press a button!", it also cost Xrd quite a bit of its roster, and it just doesn't look as good.

[Airk]

As for the advantage of 2.5D? It's cheaper and faster to produce, that's about the only advantage.

Nope, sorry, you are incorrect. It also allows manipulation of the camera to produce visual effects that are otherwise impossible, and generally more dynamic positioning of models. It makes it easily possible to create an animation for a character being hit with one specific move, for example, whereas that sort of thing is not cost effective in hand drawn sprites. It's the reason that many Astral Finishes don't even show the character getting hit, but instead just pan around on the footage that will be the same every time.

That said, it also generally means slower animations, and unnecessary camera angles or etc on supers that just scream "i'm charging up, don't press a button!", it also cost Xrd quite a bit of its roster, and it just doesn't look as good.

I don't think there's ANY evidence to support the idea that Xrd's roster would have been any bigger if it had just been a high-rez sprite game. Either way, you're looking at redrawing ALL art assets. And, in fact, if 2.5D is, in fact, cheaper and faster as you admit, then in fact, 2.5D basically made Xrd possible AT ALL, because clearly they couldn't AFFORD to do the roster in high rez sprites if they could only afford to do this many characters with cheaper 2.5D. Your argument collapses under it's own weight here.

Oh, and there's also no reason it should lead to slower animations. THAT is just modern game design.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Airk

[redsilversnake]

The animation speed is the same; only thing that got changed was the hitstop. The only reason Xrd has a small roster right now is because they're using something brand new with only a few people (going by the credits, they currently only have three modelers and three animators), so there was no way they were going to include more characters in the time they had before release. And it not looking as good is just your opinion, not a valid point.

Anyway, those who have actually played the game say it's fine. The only recurring complaint I've seen is that not every character made it in, but that will undoubtedly be rectified over time. If BB does indeed go in that direction, there's little reason to believe it wouldn't turn out as well as Xrd has.

Preferring sprites to 3D models is fine, but excessively complaining about the transition from one to the other is just ridiculous. So, again, get over yourself.

[D.R.F.]

While i think skullgirls is a very good game and has great high quality HD sprite work, most people including myself just don't like the overall Art style of the game. The game would be that much more popular if it didn't use an overal artstyle that most would be players find unappealing and a turn off.

Yea, I understand about not liking the art. Idk, the fact that it is different gives it its own style and its own atmosphere, which makes me like it more.

That said, from the character models (OMG I love how millia, may and I-no look now:D) to how the dynamic stages are (axl's and pot's stages are incredible to look at) I

Think that this transition is gonna be great to see in real life

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[XXXDC]

...it also cost Xrd quite a bit of its roster, and it just doesn't look as good.

Dude stop it, you're objectively wrong on many levels. 3D has nothing to do with less characters, 3D has nothing to do with ponytails moving this or that way on Xrd (jesus... the fanaticism, i don't even..) and yes it looks gorgeous, better than any current 2D sprites (even beautiful ones like Dragon's crown sprites -ok DC's sprites could be a little too much -). My suggestion is, get better glasses and move with the times or just enjoy the last couple of years with current BB engine.

Anyway, can't wait for BBvsGG dreamMatch.

Edited March 2, 2014 by XXXDC

[Putin]

It took me a while to accept that GG is in 3D now, and even more time for it to start growing on me. I now do think it looks good, but I'd still take sprites over models any day.

Actually, I was more upset about the possibility of BB turning 3D as well than the fact that GG already stepped into that direction.

It seems like this will be the future of ASW games, which deeply saddens me but I'll have to deal with it.

Regardless of which style one prefers though, I believe it's obvious that sprites were one of the factors which defined ASW's style and ditching it could potentially lead to homogenization of their work.

Another sad thing is that I've had friends who barely play games at all, let alone 2D ones, notice and comment on how pretty BB looks. Never happened with a 3D game besides comments on their realism, why? Because 3D is everywhere and can hardly be original anymore. I do appreciate ArcSys' effort to make Xrd look less unoriginal though.

[NecroTheReaper]

I don't think the argument here was against people who like sprites over 3D, but refusing to play what would be an otherwise great game because of it is just silly.

[Airk]

Regardless of which style one prefers though, I believe it's obvious that sprites were one of the factors which defined ASW's style and ditching it could potentially lead to homogenization of their work.

What?

Another sad thing is that I've had friends who barely play games at all, let alone 2D ones, notice and comment on how pretty BB looks. Never happened with a 3D game besides comments on their realism, why? Because 3D is everywhere and can hardly be original anymore. I do appreciate ArcSys' effort to make Xrd look less unoriginal though.

Oh don't be ridiculous. Please tell me you understand the difference between 'medium' and 'art style'? 2D sprites and 3D models are mediums. While the latter has been largely (ab)used in the service of slavish realism, games like Xrd, Jet Set Radio, and Okami prove that it is also capable of just as much variety of interesting, visually distinct ART STYLES as 2D is. It has, however, taken the technology a while to get here. If you'd showed up with this argument in like, 2001, it would've been a lot more credible.

[Putin]

The medium inevitably affects art style, or at least how it is perceived.

And I didn't say that there can't be original 3D games, heck, most of the games I play are 3D and I can list a few which do stand out. It's just harder to stand out when you're using the same medium as the majority of people in your area of interest.

Xrd looks interesting and different, yet it still doesn't stand out as much as 2D GGs do in my opinion.

[NecroTheReaper]

Idk, I passed by GG games plenty of times, thinkin about getting it, looked at the back to see the gameplay, and went "eh, doesn't look as cool as the cover lets on". Granted, I was like 10 or 12, but nonetheless, I feel like 3D GG is more eyecatching than 2D. That flash factor helps pull in newer players unless they're a really retro gamer. I wasn't entirely convinced avout getting BB for vita 2 years ago until it was like the only anime game available for vita.

[Angel-tastic]

I must say that Xrd is by far the best looking Guilty Gear to date in my opinion, and I feel like that has very little to do with it being in 3D vs. 2D. Blazblue looks better than the previous Guilty Gear as well in my opinion.

I think that has more to do with the fact that the 2D Guilty Gear games are 10+ years old now, and graphic design has improved dramatically in the last decade, especially in 3D, but even some in 2D as well.

The main thing that I think distinguishes games like Super Street Fighter and Guilty Gear in terms of the artistic direction is that SSF goes for a more realistic style whereas Guilty Gear and Blazblue aim for a more cartoony and stylized look. Looking at the gameplay footage from Xrd, the models still have the same stylized animations as before, just with better quality graphics, so the art direction seems the same to me. I personally like it just as well anyway.

I'd be interested in seeing the Blazblue cast in 3D so long as they keep the same art style they're using now, which they presumably will if Xrd is any indication.

3D vs. 2D doesn't really seem to make a big difference to me. I think it's more that 3D games almost always aim for realism, but they don't have to, and Xrd certainly isn't going that route from what I see.

Just my 2 cents.

[Dreiko]

AC is 10 years old, most of the spritework for it was done something closer to 15 years ago I believe.

Honestly, the game looks just like anime. Like I said before, being able to utilize modes which change the char model or having things in battle affect the model (such as Ky's hair falling down now) simply would NOT BE POSSIBLE with sprites since each little change would require redrawing everything which is an exhorbitant amount of work, tantamount of basically making a whole new char, so it would never happen.

You can argue the subjective merits of this art style and if it's better than sprites back and forth. They're subective so there's no "right answer", what is not subjective is that whatever these Xrd graphics are, they're not "bad" and they enable them to do many many many awesome, previously impossible things with char modes, transformation, battle damage, multiple weapon styles, costumes, different outfits, the list goes on.

[kibakirain]

Also he just said that "This reminds me of the Black Rock Shooter anime." so evidently it does give off an anime-like feel to others.

When I said that it reminded me of the Black Rock Shooter anime I meant that it had similar animation. I never said the animation of BRS was good cuz I personally didn't enjoy the anime.

PS I'm a She.

Dude stop it, you're objectively wrong on many levels. 3D has nothing to do with less characters, 3D has nothing to do with ponytails moving this or that way on Xrd (jesus... the fanaticism, i don't even..) and yes it looks gorgeous, better than any current 2D sprites (even beautiful ones like Dragon's crown sprites -ok DC's sprites could be a little too much -). My suggestion is, get better glasses and move with the times or just enjoy the last couple of years with current BB engine.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so there's no need to bash on others.

The thing I said about the movement of their ponytails is about how clumped the hair is together even if it's moved by the wind.

The thing with animation today is that 3D costs less and requires less time to animate compared to 2D because you make the models move from one point to another, while 2D is drawn by frame, meaning more time to make.(that's why Skullgirls takes a while for them to add the DLC characters.)

Anyway, I feel like this is getting off topic so I'll change the subject.

According to this article, the reason why BBCP is not on the Xbox 360 is because of the limited space.

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/03/blazblue-chrono-phantasma-producer-bringing-blazblue-different-consoles/

[Airk]

And I didn't say that there can't be original 3D games, heck, most of the games I play are 3D and I can list a few which do stand out. It's just harder to stand out when you're using the same medium as the majority of people in your area of interest.

Actually, in a lot of ways, the current state of 3D makes it EASIER for 3D games to stand out on their art, because so much of what is produced in the 3D space is only trying for "realism" it takes on a little bit of quality art direction to make a great statement.

Xrd looks interesting and different, yet it still doesn't stand out as much as 2D GGs do in my opinion.

2D GG games only stand out for looking old at this point.

[Verimeloni]

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/03/blazblue-chrono-phantasma-producer-bringing-blazblue-different-consoles/

Huh, I thought I read somewhere that Mori wouldn't want to make a new BB after ChronoP. This made my day better