[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Narroo]

Sorry, did we drop Litchi from the list of top tier characters now?

Yes.

[Errol]

it's totally matchup based, but Yeah.

Dogura/NO say Azrael vs taokaka is an even matchup.. the reason it is an even matchup is because growler is almost nonexistent against tao.

Risk/Reward really factors in there. Probably going to be quite a stretch to argue that Azrael has average defense after growler is buffed.

[9:02 PM]

All Azrael has is a really good backdash and an ok reversal.

You overlooked the fact that Growler does what it does against projectiles and how much that helps him defensively. A majority of the characters that have usable oki strategies use moves with projectile property to force you into a mixup. His ability to use growler not only to completely escape said mixup, but to also get phalanx in the process makes it essentially a get out of jail free card.

I would also put anti-airs in the category of defensive options, in which case Azrael has multiple options that have different strengths but are all pretty rewarding. 2C is gigantic and has 9 active frames, 6B is big damage without a weak point, 5B is a great panic button with a huge hitbox.

I think Azrael is fine the way he is, and I like his backdash, but to say he doesn't have really good defensive options is a tough one to understand.

[Skye]

5b and 2c are the real AAs, as good as 6b is in theory, it's actual usefulness it's limited, you only get those big numbers on CH and the follow up is awkward and distance dependant. 5b is for badly spaced air approaches and 2c although active for days is not air unblockable and one of his least safe normals, if not his least safe. You can normal block it and mash a, IB it and you got a full punish with most characters, you shouldn't come in so recklessly anyway and all those AAs are easy to bait and punish.

As an Arakune player, I judge AAs by how hard it is to deal with them (maneuver around, bait, punish, being forced to respect, etc) and Azrael is no big deal. They are good, but they all have exploits.

[Zouf]

I think Azrael does have bad defense, or at least average defense.

A characters defensive worth, imo comes from 2 factors;

How many defensive options they have available?

How good are said defensive options?

All Azrael has is a really good backdash and an ok reversal.

What the...

His reversal is good (not just ok, 360° reversal ARE good), and his backdash is godlike (we're talking about a 20f out of 26f invul backdash here, and let's not talk about the ridiculous traveling distance). And his 6A is 6f and hits crouched opponent.

If it is a bad defense, then all the characters have a terrible defense.

[D.R.F.]

Lets not forget his high health

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[Errol]

are you recommending that people non-barrier block azrael on the ground to punish his attempts to use 2c as an antiair?

[Skye]

What the...

His reversal is good (not just ok, 360° reversal ARE good), and his backdash is godlike (we're talking about a 20f out of 26f invul backdash here, and let's not talk about the ridiculous traveling distance). And his 6A is 6f and hits crouched opponent.

If it is a bad defense, then all the characters have a terrible defense.

In my opinion, observation and experience, it's not that good, not when you take into account say, Inferno Divider, Hirensou, Whatever the hell Kagura's DP is named, DPs with good hitboxes, good speeds, comboability. His DP isn't bad, but there are much better DPs out there that force a considerable amount of respect. I may have misspoken when I said "bad", I meant more along the lines of "below average" He has options and they have their uses, but can be blown up with little effort, especially in certain MUs.

are you recommending that people non-barrier block azrael on the ground to punish his attempts to use 2c as an antiair?

This is a hard question to answer, because it falls into conjecture and a player by player basis, but if you hard read the 2c, you can normal or instant block it in the air and get a free punish if Azrael tries to follow up, and people always use AAs with the expectation for them to CH.

Remember guys, dumb ol' Skye is just giving his 2 cents, no big deal.

[Airk]

In my opinion, observation and experience, it's not that good, not when you take into account say, Inferno Divider, Hirensou, Whatever the hell Kagura's DP is named, DPs with good hitboxes, good speeds, comboability. His DP isn't bad, but there are much better DPs out there that force a considerable amount of respect. I may have misspoken when I said "bad", I meant more along the lines of "below average" He has options and they have their uses, but can be blown up with little effort, especially in certain MUs.

Sorry, but you just listed a bunch of characters with SOMEWHAT better DPs who have infinitely worse backdash options. Azrael wins because he has TWO strong defensive options, even if his backdash is "Not as good as Tager's" and his DP is "not as good as Inferno Divider" the simply fact that he has both is HUGE. And yes, you've completely forgotten that it gets him out of all kinds of projectile oki for free. And they're buffing it to fix the 'negative on hit' thing.

Can some people OS both? Probably. Is that any easier that OSing most other DPs by themselves? Not really.

[Errol]

I don't honestly have that much respect for his dp when playing against azrael.

it does 500 damage and resets to neutral, for me. tsubaki can't handle both of his options easily. it's worse to eat a mash or throw etc.

in comparison,if you don't bait arakune's super in the corner, (which can't be safejumped, 5+0 startup (much better than 0+5 startup),etcetc), you probably just lost the round. the whole round.

not to say i think he has bad or average defense. growler ruins tsubaki's projectile oki.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Errol

[Skye]

Sorry, but you just listed a bunch of characters with SOMEWHAT better DPs who have infinitely worse backdash options.

Everything I mentioned about the 3 example DPs makes them better than "somewhat", imo. They ARE better, there isn't a MU where you wouldn't use it because on normal hit, you'll (not your opponent) eat 3k (Hi Tao).

Azrael wins because he has TWO strong defensive options, even if his backdash is "Not as good as Tager's" and his DP is "not as good as Inferno Divider" the simply fact that he has both is HUGE.

Again, I don't agree that Growler is "strong". it's decent, yes, and it serves it's purpose as a reversal, kinda. His backdash is his saving grace. Think about if he didn't have a really good backdash, would you still swear by Growler? I promise you not more than Jin, Ragna and Kagura players would swear by their respective DPs, and those were just the examples characters that immediately came to mind. I completely understand that Azrael has two defense options with merit, I stated that before anything, but one defense option is ok, the other is versatile, but has flaws and if I couldn't OS, I'd much sooner opt for punishing the "most likely (therefore easier to read) defense option that can make my autopilot blockstrings whiff and he gets a mostly free punish" backdash over the DP that'll return me to neutral midscreen.

And yes, you've completely forgotten that it gets him out of all kinds of projectile oki for free.

No, I haven't. I play Arakune who relies on projectile pressure, it gets him out of projectile based set ups, but he's still on the defensive afterwards, it's a MU thing, not a universal trait.

And they're buffing it to fix the 'negative on hit' thing.

I'm aware, but that's weeks from now, I'm talking about Azrael now.

[D.R.F.]

He still has good defense, just saying. Besides why do want them to be top of the line to begin with? I think the untech time on air hit is dumb, but I don't need azrael to have every option he has top of the line, that would most irratating

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[Skye]

I never said I wanted them to be better!

[D.R.F.]

Makin em sound pretty ass haha.

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[Skye]

Not at all, I said they, as a whole, amounts to a decent defensive game, but nothing overwhelming. I know it's easy to make something sound bad by only pointing out the flaws, but since everyone was talking about how good it was, a counterbalance was well needed. At least to paint a proper picture.

[D.R.F.]

Ahh okay. Well its still better than what a lot of characters have, so they have good reason

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[Skye]

True. Most characters have bad defensive options outright.

[FatalCounter]

Well as a Kagura player, come and have fun with me. He has what a strong DP but damage you get from is so little except from Air ending with suoer = ~3k We really use his DP to make people respect our wake up or make them afarid t press many buttons even all resets BS. However, when I talk about Kagura reversal, the first thing that comes in my mind is his Shockwave super, it is fast, safe on block and make people very angry (lol). His Backdash? it is quite fast but OMG the recovery!!! it is like you are locked with 10F of recovery!? I just pray they give him a 22F Backdash that would mean a lot for us.

-Less recovery after his backdash movement

-Safer backdash after 5DA maybe 2C or 5C will connect after a FC 5DA> backdash and would make only -8 on blobk.

-That will ease corner combos that are too difficult to time correctly with a slow backdash

-Make his long-range footsies less difficult.

Lets hope they do this. Amane and Bullet got a lot of buffs today because they suck, just give him some and we will be fine. LOL

-

[Dreiko]

Eh, you don't need to get damage off of DPs lol. Kagura getting 3k with super doesn't mean much. Makoto Mu Jin (normal hit) Azrael Bullet...everyone not Ragna gets less damage than Kagura from their DPs and Ragna/Plat need the corner to get theirs.

[NecroTheReaper]

I lol at Kagura's DP. Maybe it will change from a Kagura players POV, but I easily see Relius as one of his toughest matchups. I havnt ever found a need to go for mixup, oki, or pressure because you can just challenge him for full screen neutral control and land CH's. His 6D~C I've only ever seen eat up 22x and even if he's in range to hit you with it, 236Aing his drive mixup gives you a free CH. Honestly I feel like they needed to take his DP combos... and convert them into a good dash speed/air speed/SOMETHING that can help him in neutral.

PS: This matchup is my fav in CP, watching myself either destroy or getting bodied by 5k midscreen combos is great. Also 236A actually bein useful here.

[Loli Bacon]

I honestly can't think of a single character with overall better defensive options (as a whole) than Azrael. Who in the game has the best defense, if not for Azrael?

[heavymetalmixer]

I honestly can't think of a single character with overall better defensive options (as a whole) than Azrael. Who in the game has the best defense, if not for Azrael?

Ragna?

[D.R.F.]

Ragna?

But ragna is squishy as fuck

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[Angel-tastic]

To interrupt the defence discussion for just a brief moment, I was wondering, was it ever confirmed if the BBCP 1.1 release date for console got moved forward?

I heard that it was going to release around the beginning of April, but haven't been able to find an official source for it.

That would be fantastic if that was the case.

[Dreiko]

I believe Mori mentioned it during the SCR stream.