[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Dazardz]

I'm going to attempt to explore Hama combos in P4U2 once it hits consoles. I'm finally starting to use them in P4U, so now I'm really interested in them.

I had fun finding setups/resets for Hama in P4U, can't wait to see what people may come up with once everybody has it on the consoles.

 

I'm seeing Randomizer a lot more now in videos, just not seeing people land a hit after it that much. It would feel soooo sweet to hit an opponent when you FORCED negative penalty upon them.

[Strife]

I'm seeing Randomizer a lot more now in videos, just not seeing people land a hit after it that much. It would feel soooo sweet to hit an opponent when you FORCED negative penalty upon them.

 

To be honest, that would be perfectly ok. I mean, it's a [6]4 counter after all.

 

The reward is pretty nice but I don't think it would be "broken" to let her combo off of it.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Strife

[OmnixTSC]

I had fun finding setups/resets for Hama in P4U, can't wait to see what people may come up with once everybody has it on the consoles.

 

I never liked the non-combo variants of Hama (gimmicky resets), which is what I saw used the most. It's probably why I never really experimented with them. Now that I can do the ones that use Hama mid-combo, it's a lot more interesting for me.

 

A bit off-topic: would you guys like me to start recording and uploading more of my online matches? It would give you guys some food for thought so you can work on things that you need to address with your Liz play in general and I can get critiques that way

[Dazardz]

I never liked the non-combo variants of Hama (gimmicky resets), which is what I saw used the most. It's probably why I never really experimented with them. Now that I can do the ones that use Hama mid-combo, it's a lot more interesting for me.

 

A bit off-topic: would you guys like me to start recording and uploading more of my online matches? It would give you guys some food for thought so you can work on things that you need to address with your Liz play in general and I can get critiques that way

 

....

 

Yes. To the 2nd part.

[Elochai]

When's stagger pressure with reactionary Randomizer? 

[Zephyrion22]

When's stagger pressure with reactionary Randomizer? 

 

Although it could be a really nice and powerful gimmick, it would be a bit risky to throw it  out randomly in strings to bait DPs and stuff (depends if we're dealing with reactable reversals or not) because Liz's health and defense really don't allow you to eat a beefy fatal combo. Still using it every once in a while might be viable if you can afford to lose that much health should you fail your attempt

[OmnixTSC]

In response to this in the video thread:

 

P4U2 1.10 - Elizabeth Combo Compilation by Damosu (YouTube)

http://youtu.be/LxXK8zFcSQw

http://youtu.be/ywhvmEWqK4U

 

He basically just recorded a huge amount of combos. Maybe someone can put the optimal ones with resources used and damage in the combo thread? Or pastebin, idk.

 

I can't tell what's optimal resource and damage-wise from this outside of the hama combos (which use all of our meter, lulz).

 

I'm just going to wait until the game hits consoles. I was looking at the video and I kept getting the feeling that something is just missing from a number of these as far as optimization goes. I could be wrong, but that's just what it felt like. When the game hits consoles, I'll get with some players and see what we can optimize. Bace will probably find a lot.

[Luminos564]

Without wishing to offend Damosu or Strife who posted the youtube links for them (seriously, thank you), almost none of them looked "practical". Gimmicky is more what I'd call them since, if you'll notice, a very large chunk of them start with a Fatal Counter (meaning the opponent would need to be under Fear prior to starting them). Some of them I also feel are there just for show. Who in their right mind will ever be hit by a naked j236D? Or the large amount of Mahamaon combos. Is Damosu trying to tell us that we need to rely on them now or something?

 

Still it isn't all bad news. Seems like Maragidyne (D) has gained some speed so it can be used as a safer ender move after Mabufudyne (B/SB). Damage is looking relatively better at least. 25SP for ~3K damage? Sure I can live with that. We still need to be able to actually get that 1st hit in, but at least we no longer need to burn 50SP just to break the 3K barrier. Only on some of things.

 

And yet, I was excited to see Golden Arena Elizabeth the most. Probably because it shows the 2 things I wish she had:

-Constantly generating SP regardless of use.

-Mahamaon activating near instantaneously.

[Strife]

Without wishing to offend Damosu or Strife who posted the youtube links for them (seriously, thank you), almost none of them looked "practical". Gimmicky is more what I'd call them since, if you'll notice, a very large chunk of them start with a Fatal Counter (meaning the opponent would need to be under Fear prior to starting them). Some of them I also feel are there just for show. Who in their right mind will ever be hit by a naked j236D?

 

There's too much combos in those videos, they're not all Fatal counter starters or corner only. That's the main reason I asked if someone who plays the character could do a breakdown and see what it's practical or situational. He covers all kinds of confirms, it would be interesting to see on paper what she really gets off of those.

 

I wouldn't call them "gimmicky" though, Fatals after Fear are situations you need to be ready to convert into damage as Elizabeth and Damosu shows all kinds of ways to do that. What if you do hit a naked j.236D in a match and drop the combo because you don't know exactly how to follow that up?

Edited May 12, 2014 by Strife

[Elochai]

I am inclined to agree with Strife. Even if the combos are not the most optimal or whatever, you still get a good idea of what Elizabeth is capable of in this version. The grounded 5A route is similar to the one in P4U for example, and the damage you get in both games is close (oki is a different story though, so take that as you will).

In regards to starters, I see little issue with what Damosu used (if I was nitpicking, it would be towards the fact that a majority of them had started with 1HSM 5C). J236D, for example, wasn't impractical in P4U (not a good idea to use in neutral, but not bad), and 5C FC happened, too.

Overall, I'm satisfied with what I saw. Liz's combos look fun and they hit for decent damage. You can even run oki on some of them. I'm glad someone finally used hop cancel for combos.

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[OmnixTSC]

A lot of those combos are very practical. We get FC's rather easily b/c of 2C and throw, the former of which I feel has some more applications combo-wise that we haven't seen yet. Something can be practical without it being optimal, which is made pretty obvious in the video. The meter usage on some of these isn't too bad and they get the job done (sizable damage + oki). I'm just not sure which combos I'd throw into a pastebin for optimization when I noticed that a few things might be possible to extend combo length or increase damage in a number of the combos, even if only for a small bonus.

 

I didn't see anything wrong with the video itself outside of the organization of the combos being really meh. That's probably my only legitimate complaint. Other than that, Damosu did a great job labbing stuff. Gave us a lot of content to work with.

[Akiro]

I don't watch much Liz in P4AU, but I was under the impression that Bufu > AoA > OMC > Command grab super wasn't possible anymore because I rarely ever see Liz do it in real matches anymore.

 

Whats the deal?

[Elochai]

I don't watch much Liz in P4AU, but I was under the impression that Bufu > AoA > OMC > Command grab super wasn't possible anymore because I rarely ever see Liz do it in real matches anymore.

 

Whats the deal?

 

In the first P4U, 214B > AOA OMC > Wail was lovely because it did a lot of damage, and it was only 100 meter. This was because after doing 2C, the next physical persona attack got an extra 50% damage. In P4U2, bufu now eats this 50% damage buff, so Wail does less damage. It's possible to circumvent this loss in damage by doing a combo with 214AB > 2C (whiff) > AOA OMC > Wail. It costs 25 more meter though (214B nerf makes it so that you can't combo into it anymore afaik).

[Dazardz]

Going from part 2 of the combo compilation in this post.

 

Who cares about Liz damage? As long as the combos look amazing it's alright! Of course the veterans think otherwise. Dare I say the only reason I picked Liz first is because of how amazing all of her stuff looked. For example, that combo at 0:27. Damn sexy. 1:19. Later on I found out that the damage was just stupid.

 

I'm sort of impressed with the damage off of AoA, but maybe that's due to the AoA itself. 6:22 was a nice use of Sword Master 5C.

 

Holy snap that Golden Liz at the end.

[Zephyrion22]

A lot of those combos are very practical. We get FC's rather easily b/c of 2C and throw

 

Guys don't forget moves with Fatal recovery, I'm pretty sure punishing those with the right moves consistently and confirming from said moves will be very important too !

[Elochai]

I've started compiling some of the Elizabeth combos into a formatted document. It's a work in progress (as evident by missing/unclear values & shoddy organization), but at least the information is readily available I guess. Additionally, the discussion is open in regards as to how we're to notate combos. I'll try to clean this up before the day is over, but yeah.

It's worth mentioning that all of the mind charge combos assume that you're not in awakening. They also only account for total SP consumed after you've used mind charge.

Edit: corrected all the instances where 214D should have been written instead of 214C. Just need to find damage/meter values now .

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvCrScNd_E2JF3kqdzZZZEaqq9o18QjvVV49vkiwnQk/edit?usp=docslist_api

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[Strife]

Damosu is now officially 800 PSR!

[Dazardz]

Damosuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!

 

Since Okusan pretty much ABANDONED Liz, Damosu is probably now the best Liz player in Japan! Right?

[Zephyrion22]

Damosu is certainly the best liz around, but then again the number of serious liz players is...well...Also I might be a douche but I don't think Damosu will last long in the 800+ arena, the land of  terrifying Mitsurus, Shos and Narukamis,. I still wish him the best of luck on his Liz path and really hope he proves me wrong though !

[GBAer64]

I'm sure Damosu can pull through, it may be a tough challenge against those nasty Yu's, Mitsuru's, and Sho's. But I'm sure he can still pull through. After all it's not like he's just another averager Liz player right? Since honestly the only thing I see being a problem is how there's only one Liz player up in those leagues. If anything we definitely need a new Liz player who can put up a Sho like that. (Get it? : D)

 

Anyone know the reason Okusan left Liz? Is it something more than the usual "She's dead to me like she's dead to the competitives" kinda reason?

[Strife]

Anyone know the reason Okusan left Liz? Is it something more than the usual "She's dead to me like she's dead to the competitives" kinda reason?

 

Ver1.00 Liz was kinda depressing to be honest. On top of that, he was interested in Sho and stuck with him.

[Dazardz]

Thanks for posting something.

 

Anyway, since I don't want this to die down... I need to think of something to discuss about Liz. (I'm not good at this)

 

Would Liz be quite strong if she had a shadow mode? I mean, the meter gain would be absurd, but she would deal less damage and all that... what do you think her shadow mode would be like? I've seen quite a lot of Shadow gameplay and those combos look amazing.

[xlolxlolx]

considering how she looks like she got shafted harder than p4u1 i dont think giving her a shadow version would make much of a difference, maybe some ghetto shit like reversal berserk>fc ex coffin>stuff>ex bufu>rc>buffed ex coffin?

[Luminos564]

Lizzie having a Shadow version wouldn't honestly be possible. And even if it did exist, it changes virtually nothing other than make it harder for Lizzie to escape death. Think about it: she has Mind Charge. That move was designed to force her into Awakening. But since Shadow versions cannot enter Awakening, it becomes even more of a death sentence even if Shadow Lizzie could have 9500 HP. Added, it's not like she can chain multiple Ghastly Wails in a single combo to make the crazy combo damage like the others could (you'll notice they very rarely utilize SB specials during Shadow Rampage).

[SupaFella0]

The scaling... Also her specials don't gain anything out of being cancelable.