Kokonoe banned from Rebel Up tournament series

[BananaKun]

Well, at least it's not all going to be lost when she actually gets patched and gets unbanned. I just hope that ArcSys balances her fairly and doesn't destroy her like CT -> CS1 Rachel. She's a really interesting character, i used to hold a "wait and see" approach, but after that infinite corner blockstring(thanks for showing that to us btw), i really can't argue that this is anywhere close to being fair. Corner knockdown into lightning trap oki is something that happens -all the time-, so that can lead straight into it. Reminds me of hyper SSF2 dictator with the infinite knee press corner pressure.

It's not a true blockstring infinite, blocking the fireball standing and/or IB creates gaps. Still testing if there's an universal option to get out (i.e. not needing a reversal of sorts).

[NecroTheReaper]

The more I watch Koko videos, the more I feel like she was balanced for Extend, when everyone could do 7-10k combos and could get 50 heat off of 5A's. I feel like if you imagine your character now, revert said character to extend status, she wouldn't seem as rediculous, but its still an issue. I see stuff "oh, mixup that gives full screen corner carry and 3.5-4k damage. Lovely" and people act like you shouldn't get hit by it in a real match. I personally am not confident enough to play competitively so banning her or not is all up to people who go to tourneys

[Loli Bacon]

I think it is incredibly unreasonable to expect 99.9% of the community to be willing or even capable of doing this. People have 25 other matchups to worry about too. There is so much specific stuff you need to know in order to escape much of her "rigged" stuff that most players will be unable or unwilling to learn to deal with it.

I'm not saying that these sort of statements are unjustified. They probably hold some truth, in that Kokonoe is beatable (possibly even at top levels) if you know as much about her as the other player does. It's just that these kinds of broad statements are both uneducated (by clearly not attempting to understand the other side of the argument) and selfish/childish (ba-baka!).

This is called being competitive. If you can't be bothered to learn how to deal with a powerful character at a tournament level, you don't deserve to win against her. What you're saying is someone should be able to consistently beat somebody by chance rather than by learning the matchup? If they don't KNOW what they are doing, they are guessing, which means they should win by chance/luck.

I wonder how you would have reacted to Eddie and Testament in GG: Eddie has unblockable oki and unblockable pressure strings that are meterless. For most cases, the answer to is just "deal with it", and for the options I can react to, the answer was to learn how to deal with it so I wasn't as disadvantaged as I would be had I not known the scenario.

I'm all for a ban, but again, I think everyone is overreacting to some of her stuff and they get too caught up in the fear of what she can do.

[Dark Ranger88]

The sad thing about all of this is that Kokonoe was such an awaited and popular character. Seriously, the fanfare on this board when she was announced was ridiculous. Like half of the board said they were going to main her before they even knew what her gameplay was like. She was in everyone's avatar and sigs.

Now we have this controversy...sigh. It makes me feel really bad that some people are going to get shit on and called tier whores for playing a character that they enjoy immensely. I'm willing to bet that there are tons of people who would still main Kokonoe even if she was bottom tier.

[Tong]

I wonder how you would have reacted to Eddie and Testament in GG: Eddie has unblockable oki and unblockable pressure strings that are meterless. For most cases, the answer to is just "deal with it", and for the options I can react to, the answer was to learn how to deal with it so I wasn't as disadvantaged as I would be had I not known the scenario.

One thing is an already unbalanced game, another one is a relatively balanced game getting screwed over by a single add-on character.

And comparing different characters from different games is pointless, there are alot of things to consider.

[Eshi]

One thing is an already unbalanced game, another one is a relatively balanced game getting screwed over by a single add-on character.

And comparing different characters from different games is pointless, there are alot of things to consider.

Yes, I really REALLY wish people would stop doing this. People keep comparing Kokonoe to CT Rachel or Nu or whatever and saying they're just as good. There were 12 characters in BBCT and Arakune/Nu/Carl all had ridiculously broken stuff, lower characters still had ridiculous stuff that kept them able to compete. We're not talking about BBCT. We're talking about BBCP. There are over twice as many characters in this game and none of them go even with Kokonoe, not even other top tiers like Valk and Tao. Many characters just get completely destroyed. Evaluate Koko in the context of this game, not BBCT/BBCS.

The sad thing about all of this is that Kokonoe was such an awaited and popular character. Seriously, the fanfare on this board when she was announced was ridiculous. Like half of the board said they were going to main her before they even knew what her gameplay was like. She was in everyone's avatar and sigs.

Now we have this controversy...sigh. It makes me feel really bad that some people are going to get shit on and called tier whores for playing a character that they enjoy immensely. I'm willing to bet that there are tons of people who would still main Kokonoe even if she was bottom tier.

I agree, I hated how everyone jumped down Setsuna's throat every time he dropped a combo when he just plays characters he likes, like Labrys. Edited January 22, 2014 by Eshi

[Airk]

This is called being competitive. If you can't be bothered to learn how to deal with a powerful character at a tournament level, you don't deserve to win against her. What you're saying is someone should be able to consistently beat somebody by chance rather than by learning the matchup? If they don't KNOW what they are doing, they are guessing, which means they should win by chance/luck.

No, I believe you are incorrect here. If one matchup in a game requires many times more specific situational knowledge that is essentially REQUIRED to even -compete- in that matchup, than any other matchup in the game, that is indicative of a problem with the character. This is too close to the other types of justifications people are using for Kokonoe ("But some characters can deal with her stuff, so it's fine!"). "Learn the matchup" yes, fine. "Learn the matchup that is ten times the amount of weird character specific BS as anyone else, and if you don't, no matter how good you are." is not.

I too feel bad for people who picked up the character as their very first, but not that bad; She hasn't been out THAT long.

[susano]

This is called being competitive. If you can't be bothered to learn how to deal with a powerful character at a tournament level, you don't deserve to win against her. What you're saying is someone should be able to consistently beat somebody by chance rather than by learning the matchup? If they don't KNOW what they are doing, they are guessing, which means they should win by chance/luck.

One of those 'git good' implications.

[Ventus Tatshima]

Hopefully this'll blow over soon

[Wonderswan]

No, I believe you are incorrect here. If one matchup in a game requires many times more specific situational knowledge that is essentially REQUIRED to even -compete- in that matchup, than any other matchup in the game, that is indicative of a problem with the character. This is too close to the other types of justifications people are using for Kokonoe ("But some characters can deal with her stuff, so it's fine!"). "Learn the matchup" yes, fine. "Learn the matchup that is ten times the amount of weird character specific BS as anyone else, and if you don't, no matter how good you are." is not.

I too feel bad for people who picked up the character as their very first, but not that bad; She hasn't been out THAT long.

Agree with this 100%.

This is not one of those 'git good' situations. It's one of those 'she beats you at almost every level of the game'.

I'm never on board with a ban, but regardless of how much time and effort you put into this match you're not learning how to overcome it, you're just learning how to not look as free. We are only 3 months into having Kokonoe. Evo is still another 6 months away. I'm willing to bet Kokonoe players widen the gap faster than others can close it in that time.

Again. Not in favor of a ban, but with a shit-ton of high level Kokonoe's looking to show up to EVO, it's looking pretty grim, and a little bit lame. Hopefully some magical Kokonoe exploit will come out of nowhere and everyone can chill. It's not likely though.

[SuperJ]

i was curious about the infinite blockstring part. i'm just using the ones i see in this video.

5a has 6f startup and 11f blockstun

2a has 7f startup and 11f blockstun

5b has 11f startup and 16f blockstun

2b has 10f startup and 13f blockstun

6a has 11f startup and 16f blockstun

5c has 14f startup

IB decreases blockstun by 3f. this implies that 5A/2A - 5B/2B and 5B/2B - 5C is not airtight. this leaves 5a xN and [5b-6a] xN. if this can be done regardless of barrier pushback then there is a big fucking problem. of course god help you if you don't have a reversal

anyways, frame data is your friend. continue

[Errol]

hitting a 1 frame gap on ib with a reversal is pretty hard. just saying.

[TheRealBobMan]

Couldn't you still IB all of those hits to get meter, then Dead Angle / whatever BB calls an Alpha Counter? It looks like she's getting in the neighborhood of 1 meter per hit on block (times a bunch of hits with some multi-hit moves), but doesn't BB give you 2 meter for IBing?

Shit, you even see it in the video. She keeps him in block pressure for so long that the automatic IB takes effect, and he reaches 50% BEFORE SHE DOES. And that's only after the automatic IB triggers. If a player IBs every hit in her string he'll have the meter to escape way faster. Also, if that trick works in BB where you switch between high/low blocking and it counts the input as an instant block, it might not even be hard to do, depending on if this string has high/low in it.

Bad for gameplay? I don't play BB, and while I was somewhat interested in CP, this makes me not want to play it, so I'd say yes, this is bad for game play.

Is it broken? Probably not.

Someone please post that IB > get meter > Dead Angle info on SRK if it's not already on there to help people out who enter tournaments where she's not banned. My lunch break just ended.

[Airk]

Shit, you even see it in the video. She keeps him in block pressure for so long that the automatic IB takes effect, and he reaches 50% BEFORE SHE DOES. And that's only after the automatic IB triggers. If a player IBs every hit in her string he'll have the meter to escape way faster. Also, if that trick works in BB where you switch between high/low blocking and it counts the input as an instant block, it might not even be hard to do, depending on if this string has high/low in it.

AFAIK, block switching doesn't IB. Also, this whole plan of "You know, just instant block flawlessly for a while and then counter assault out" only works up until the point when the player decides to like, do a mixup. It's not like "keep you in a blockstring until until they can hit you with a black hole" is their only option or something.

Oh, and also, you're wrong Valk beating her to 50% just from guard bonus - watch the video more closely. Kokonoe is at 51% when Valk is at 48%. She probably could have gone into blackhole a couple of hits earlier, which would have rendered the CA wasted/ineffective because the black hole is invulnerable from frame 1 until like, forever. (I mean really? 218 frames of complete invulnerability?)

Regardless, being able to put the opponent into a situation where their ONLY option is "instant block and reversal or hope you build enough meter to counter assault" is just absurd with how easy it is to set up. (Because no one should ever get hit by midscreen 2A, right?)

This is the problem. It's simply not a case of "oh, hey, give people more time and they'll figure out how to beat Kokonoe." It's actually the reverse. New ways for Kokonoe to kill people are being discovered MUCH faster than ways for other people to fight back.

[mAceOfHearts]

You do get meter for IB'ing. (3 per block, I believe)

Dead Angles are called Counter Assaults and deal no damage.

I don't believe that the block switching trick works in BB. (It works when blocking cross-ups, though that's pretty much a given)

Also, IB'ing in general is pretty risky. If the opponent notices it - and he/she will - he/she can just delay the timing of an attack a bit and get a free combo.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Edited January 22, 2014 by mAceOfHearts

[Myoro]

Most of that info is accurate, but by the time you IB yourself 50 meter she'll have nearly that much herself and you'll sill be dangerously corner against kokonoe's neutral. Next time she touches you she won't have to do a unbreakable pressure string to set up black hole it will just happen. Kinda the same argument as "Well you could just burst." That is to say you do have a point that it's not a instant death sentence, but it's pretty darn close.

Incidently, Would Instant Barrier-ing her phisical attacks push her far enough away to escape?

[Eshi]

People are fixating too hard on specific block strings. No, they are not true infinites. Characters with reversal can escape on IB at certain points. Certain points in the string can be counter assaulted out of with 100% reliability. Y'all need to look at the bigger picture though. Kokonoe has one of the best revolver action tables in the game, all she has to do is vary/stagger her strings and people who try to IB every attack will get hit. Or she can just set up into meterless instant overhead/low/throw/teleport cross-up.

The whole infinite block string thing is somewhat overblown but it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Specific aspects of her gameplay are not the problem, her incomparable versatility is the problem.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Eshi

[Soniti]

Fully agree that the infinite blockstring isn't what people should be fixating on. Kokonoe was already incredibly strong and potentially ban-worthy before this. As Eshi said, it's simply the last straw.

[Mumm-Ra]

Can't say I'm surprised about this, I agree 100% with a ban. Does this suck for Koko players? I guess, but in due time you'll be able to play with her after ASW fixes her, hopefully they don't rape her like they did with CT Rachel, as much as I hate the character, I dislike crippled characters more than broken ones.

[STenSatsu]

Yeah it sucks for Koko players that they wasted their time if she gets banned. It also sucks that ArcSys released a character that is so obviously strong that she completely renders the majority of the cast obsolete.

The real question is do we want to play a ~6 character game or a 15-20 character game? Kokonoe will define the competitive environment of this game if she is allowed to rock. Honestly it isn't even about her getting 1st in every tournament. Anyone who saw NEC pools knows exactly how much effect she had on the entire tournament and that was with everyone being shit with the character. Honestly I just want to play this game so I prefer whatever is healthiest for the scene.

I play both a character that can kind of fight her (Azrael) and one who just gets dumpstered (Rachel) so I know what it is like playing against this character from two extremes. The Rachel player in me says that Kokonoe is an abomination that may as well have replaced my character on the select screen because she is just better than Rachel at everything. The Azrael player in me says that I can deal with this character and it won't be so bad. Take that however you want.

This is a ~7 character game regardless of a Kokonoe ban. It doesn't really change the list of tournament winning characters by more than 1.

[Eshi]

This is a ~7 character game regardless of a Kokonoe ban. It doesn't really change the list of tournament winning characters by more than 1.

yeah... no. Not even close to true, in either Japan or the US.

[Wonderswan]

This is a ~7 character game regardless of a Kokonoe ban. It doesn't really change the list of tournament winning characters by more than 1.

The gap is nowhere near so far apart that you should jump to the conclusion of this being a 7 character game. The only problem is the noteable gap between Kokonoe and the very top tier.

[mAceOfHearts]

There's a big difference between a 7 character game and a 1 character game.

[TAI-X]

My theory is that Kokonoe was deliberately made overpowered so people would be more likely to buy her. She's the only CP console character who you're forced to pay for, even if you cleared story mode and preordered the game.

[mAceOfHearts]

But everyone and their mother was asking for her! A humongous portion of the fanbase had been waiting for her to be released for years! Why would they think she wouldn't sell incredibly well already?

And if that was their plan, why wouldn't they do the same with Terumi or Kagura?