[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion 2.0

[Slayer Alucard]

Her 5B is only one frame slower than Ragna's, and maybe slightly less range. It's fine as it is.

Like I said, I have no complaints with her damage, only the way she gets charge. If they increase her charge speed or give her OS charge bursts, I'm satisfied.

[Airk]

I'm just making stuff up at this point, but Tsubaki's drive mechanism bothers me a little bit from a STORY angle; Everyone else in the game, their drive makes sense with their story (Okay, except maybe for Rachel - her drive just seems kinda random, but at least it behaves the way you'd expect wind control to work.).

Izayoi is supposed to steal light - both from its owner (sadly) and from its victims. None of this is really reflected in how Tsubaki's drive works. The act of charging just doesn't seem to fit logically with how her weapon is 'supposed' to work. While actually making it "steal light" would probably be weird and awkward and, anyway, way too large a change, it seems like even using the existing gauge mechanic, this COULD reflect the story/lore better.

First, so data on the gauge:

The Install gauge is 50,000 units (1 bar=10,000).

5D charges at 160/Frame at first and 300/Frame after 16 frames

2D charges at 150/Frame at first and 190/Frame after 30 frames

jD charges at 130/280/220 depending on how long you charge for (complicated)

I propose the following:

A) The install gauge fills 5 pts for every point of damage you inflict on your opponent (Possibly excluding damage from D attacks) as Izayoi steals light from your enemy. So just from doing damage, over the course of the match, you gain somewhere around 5 bars of charge. (Not quite five bars from Carl and Tao, slightly more for others)

B) The install gauge fills slowly even from blocked attacks (maybe 1 pt for every 2 damage the attack might have done) - same rationale. So while maintaining an offense, your guage increases, albeit pretty slowly.

C) All charges fill the gauge twice as fast as currently... but inflict 1 damage to YOU for every 25 pts of charge. (No damage if you charge while the gauge is totally full.) Izayoi steals light from Tsubaki. Charging is -fast- now, but comes at a cost. Charging your gauge from zero to full does 2000 damage to Tsubaki.

This should produce the following effects:

A) Charging is no longer the primary way you want to use to fill the gauge, but it remains viable to do -some- charging during the match, and it makes you less vulnerable when it does due to faster charge rates.

B) It makes a constant rushdown more rewarding - if you are attacking and forcing your opponent to block, you are building some Install. If you are doing damage, you are building install fairly significantly.

C) It produces a sort of "reverse Arakune" situation, where "normal" attacks build the gauge and Drive attacks drain it.

D) It makes Tsubaki's drive more consistent with her storyline. (I know, I know, who cares, but I like this sort of thing.)

Obviously, all the numbers on this could be tuned to produce a good balance, but I think the gist of the idea is sound. It would pretty radically change the way Tsubaki plays, but I know a lot of people around here who are way more experienced than me find the entire charge-dependancy idea is flawed, and I think I agree with the sentiment.

Some other changes would probably be welcome as well - making one or both of her jump specials have overhead properties (at least on the D version), adding some meaningful invincibility to the D uppercut, changes to normals to make her less susceptable to IB/Reversals, etc, but I leave that sort of thing to people who know better than I do. On the other hand, I think this is an interesting way to make Tsubaki a ore effective 'in your face' character without having to completely replace her drive with something else.

[Zeo.]

C) All charges fill the gauge twice as fast as currently... but inflict 1 damage to YOU for every 25 pts of charge. (No damage if you charge while the gauge is totally full.) Izayoi steals light from Tsubaki. Charging is -fast- now, but comes at a cost. Charging your gauge from zero to full does 2000 damage to Tsubaki.

I like that idea, because it eliminates it being trolled on and reffered to as "broken" balances it out pretty well. ilike the idea out autocharging too because when you think about it, EVERYONE who has some type of gauge tager, rachel, carl etc it refills by itself over time, oh shit forgot, makoto's doesnt but its super quick but back to the point, ifeel hers should be the same as its vital to being decent with her

[pktazn]

She's charging by taking light from around her and herself. MAGIC

Why would you want to be damaged for charging? That little pixel could save you and it's counter-productive considering how much you're going to be charging in a match lol.

Auto-charging would not make sense if you're really going for "story-related"ness with her fighting and gameplay because well... it just wouldn't make sense. Everyone else can have an explanation but not her. Also it would destroy her purpose of being a "charging" character if it auto-fills in any way.

Also Order Sol turned out just fine (in AC at least lol) even though he's a charging character but then again it is Order Sol and not Tsubaki. She looked like a good character on paper but they fucked up in the delivery. Imo they just think they need to make her normal moves not suck and her damage output better outside of combos using her charge meter.

[Shaffler]

You know, it would be cooler yet more annoying if somehow, the more you charge, the darker the background becomes.

[Taylor]

While I really like the idea of escaping Hakumen and Tager so I can self-harm instead, I don't believe making her charge faster is going to solve any of her serious problems.

[Airk]

I'm not going to argue for my idea; Either you like it and think it is interesting or you don't.

Basically, as best as I can tell, there are two opinions on Tsubaki's problems:

A) "She'd be fine except she never gets a chance to charge, and when she does she has to sacrifice momentum to do it"

or

B) She doesn't do enough damage/her normals suck.

My idea fixes A. If you don't think that's the nature of the problem, then obviously it's not going to do it for you. I think it produces a more interesting character than the current one, and fits more closely with her lore, but that's my opinion. I also think it's probably not a 100% fix and that some fidgeting around with normals and specials is probably in order.

As for "Order Sol" A) I don't know anything about him, so I'm not going to say anything except B) It's fairly clear to me from the way pktazn describes him that he was pretty poor in at least one of his incarnations - which seems to indicate that this "character that has to charge a gauge manually" thing hasn't exactly met with a high rate of success overall. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions there.

[Nakkiel]

Or you could give her Action Charge and make her normals half-assed decent...

[Slayer Alucard]

^How about just doing that without nerfing anything else in the process? Action charge is practically needed for her.

[pktazn]

Basically, as best as I can tell, there are two opinions on Tsubaki's problems:

A) "She'd be fine except she never gets a chance to charge, and when she does she has to sacrifice momentum to do it"

or

B) She doesn't do enough damage/her normals suck.

My idea fixes A. If you don't think that's the nature of the problem, then obviously it's not going to do it for you. I think it produces a more interesting character than the current one, and fits more closely with her lore, but that's my opinion. I also think it's probably not a 100% fix and that some fidgeting around with normals and specials is probably in order.

As for "Order Sol" A) I don't know anything about him, so I'm not going to say anything except B) It's fairly clear to me from the way pktazn describes him that he was pretty poor in at least one of his incarnations - which seems to indicate that this "character that has to charge a gauge manually" thing hasn't exactly met with a high rate of success overall. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions there.

Problem A stems from Problem B. It's because of the fact that her normals suck hard and she can't do damage that we try to charge to get any decent damage. If we can at least get better normals and maybe slightly higher damage then Tsubaki wouldn't have to charge as much. Action charge would be glorious.

Order Sol wasn't that good (D tier) when he first came out but then they released AC and he became B tier (though tiers are more blurred than in BB) after they tweaked him and he's damn scary if you're against someone who knows how to play him. So my hope is that it'll happen to Tsubaki as well.

[Airk]

Problem A stems from Problem B. It's because of the fact that her normals suck hard and she can't do damage that we try to charge to get any decent damage. If we can at least get better normals and maybe slightly higher damage then Tsubaki wouldn't have to charge as much.

So let me ask this question. What's he point of a character whose design is based around charging who...doesn't have to charge?

I believe that a character's drive should be an integral part of their game - and certainly, the design of every other BB character indicates that that is generally a good idea. Therefore, I can't get behind the idea of just saying "Buff up her normals and stuff and then we won't have to charge! That solves the problem of charging sucking!" That's just not good design. Her Drive should be part of her game, not something that you work around.

[Mr. Kimura]

Uggggggh Mission 6.

[Shaffler]

Uggggggh Mission 6.

When you j.236D, you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO delay j.214D. When the ball projectile gets a little farther, you input j.214D.

It takes time to get used to, but all of her challenges are so damn easy even I managed to 100% her.

[Mr. Kimura]

When you j.236D, you HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO delay j.214D. When the ball projectile gets a little farther, you input j.214D.

It takes time to get used to, but all of her challenges are so damn easy even I managed to 100% her.

Yeah her first five were really easy, its just six is pissing me off and I don't want to do the rest yet, cause I'm like that. Thanks for the help. My main problem was that whenever it hits it knocks them away or sometimes I'll just miss them barely (should have stated that the first time though).

But thanks, it worked! How do did you know

[pktazn]

I can't get behind the idea of just saying "Buff up her normals and stuff and then we won't have to charge! That solves the problem of charging sucking!" That's just not good design. Her Drive should be part of her game, not something that you work around.

You misunderstand, I'm not saying take away her drive, imo we shouldn't have to solely rely on charges to keep up with the other characters right now in CS but if we had action charge like Slayer Alucard said then things would be a lot better.

Her drive is supposed to be there to help her (since beautiful things can happen when she has charges) but it's not helping as much as it could be because she has nothing to back her up so people aren't afraid to approach her. Some of the other characters are hard to approach because they actually have stuff to fight back with, not just their drive. Her moves are already set it up so that her opponent is knocked away so that she's able to charge. I just think that the opponent needs to feel threatened if they approach her if she doesn't have charge, and be like "Oh shit" when she does... or at least that's how I see it

[STenSatsu]

So let me ask this question. What's he point of a character whose design is based around charging who...doesn't have to charge?

I believe that a character's drive should be an integral part of their game - and certainly, the design of every other BB character indicates that that is generally a good idea. Therefore, I can't get behind the idea of just saying "Buff up her normals and stuff and then we won't have to charge! That solves the problem of charging sucking!" That's just not good design. Her Drive should be part of her game, not something that you work around.

I agree completely. That's why I am more in favor of something that makes getting charge easier. That, along with a range buff to 5c and maybe 5cc so you don't get jewed after 6a or 6b with spacing, and making D dp a bit more consistent (please close the gap at the top and add a bit more invul imo) would basically make her b/b+ which is what we should aim for with balancing. That way when you have charge you have a real reversal option, but you have to think about what you spend charge on. Would also indirectly buff her damage since she gets like ~3k off most stuff with 1 charge use.

[Airk]

I agree completely. That's why I am more in favor of something that makes getting charge easier. That, along with a range buff to 5c and maybe 5cc so you don't get jewed after 6a or 6b with spacing, and making D dp a bit more consistent (please close the gap at the top and add a bit more invul imo) would basically make her b/b+ which is what we should aim for with balancing. That way when you have charge you have a real reversal option, but you have to think about what you spend charge on. Would also indirectly buff her damage since she gets like ~3k off most stuff with 1 charge use.

This is exactly what I was going for; Yes, there do need to be some changes 'up front' so she's not 100% dependent on her drive, but at the same time, it needs to key in really making her work. A Tsubaki that doesn't use any D button specials or charge canceling should be about as effective as any other character if they were forbidden from using their drive. But at the same time, she needs to be MORE dangerous than most characters when she has charge, because she doesn't always have it, and it needs to be obtainable, because a character that can't use their drive is just bad.

Things like a real, powerful reversal in the form the D uppercut would go a long way towards that.

But yeah. Whether you like my zany idea for making charge obtainable or not, I won't argue, but I will come down firmly in agreement with Sten on the style of fix that is needed.

No one is ever going to be "afraid" of trying to stop Tsubaki from charging. In fact, we don't WANT them to be. We want them coming towards us. It's the only place she can do her damage. We want people to stick to us like glue in a desperate attempt to keep us from getting charge, because it's just that bad for them when we do.

[pktazn]

Sorry if I made you feel that I didn't agree her charging needed changing cuz it really does, hence my support Slayer Alucard's and MissedFRC's suggestion for Action Charge and I agree with what STen said as well. I get what you're saying, and I wasn't arguing just sharing my opinion D:

She doesn't have to be completely threatening but it'd be nice if the opponent was just a little bit hesitant cuz they'd be like "What's she going to do now?" and do something stupid (the opponent I mean) and she's able to nicely punish them for that. I guess it's just my personal playstyle of wanting to keep them on their toes and liking a lot of mix-up. I'm spoiled by Millia in GG unfortunately OTL

EDIT:

No one is ever going to be "afraid" of trying to stop Tsubaki from charging. In fact, we don't WANT them to be. We want them coming towards us. It's the only place she can do her damage. We want people to stick to us like glue in a desperate attempt to keep us from getting charge, because it's just that bad for them when we do.

Where did you get the idea that I want them to be so afraid that they wouldn't want to stop her from charging (if this was directed at me)? I want them to be afraid when she has charge just as you said AND when she doesn't. I like instilling fear both ways cuz I'm sadistic like that

[STenSatsu]

I think anyone comparing guilty mixup to bb mixup would be disappointed if you preferred the former lol. Honestly, I'm pretty sure most people are at least wary of letting Tsubaki get 2+ charges if they know a bit about her already. At the moment it is simply to easy to prevent charging and her combos can be very volatile range-wise. I don't think she needs some crazy tweaks to her charge system. Even if it just happened a decent bit faster it'd be fine.

[Taylor]

So let me ask this question. What's he point of a character whose design is based around charging who...doesn't have to charge?

I believe that a character's drive should be an integral part of their game - and certainly, the design of every other BB character indicates that that is generally a good idea. Therefore, I can't get behind the idea of just saying "Buff up her normals and stuff and then we won't have to charge! That solves the problem of charging sucking!" That's just not good design. Her Drive should be part of her game, not something that you work around.

Though nobody said Tsubaki shouldn’t have to charge, so that's a bit of a straw man argument. The point is that throwing additional gimmicks at her charge mechanic is not going to fix her pressure, lack of options, instant block susceptibility, combo-filler specials, etc. it's just going to make her charge better, which means higher average damage and more predictable gimmicks. Basically allowing you to beat people you would've beat anyway easier, but not actually helping in disadvantaged match ups. I also disagree that the D button should supersede all other aspects of the character making them into a one-trick-pony.

I don't really care if Tsubaki stays low tier, I just want her to become more interesting. She's a character who, as you invest the time to learn her, gives you only decreasing amounts of options. Assuming opponents know what 22D does and can instant block (instant block and jab, nothing fancy) she has nothing worthy of respect and her toolset contains very little to work with. Even a combo after her air throw has prerequisites. Constraints can fuel creativity, but only to a point.

The biggest culprit is her combo filler specials. I mean what is 214x? What is its actual purpose? It’s a slow launcher that travels horizontally and can be blocked all. It does the job of a move like Gauntlet Hades/Greed Sever/Bandit Revolver without having any of the other characteristics that make them a useful part of the characters toolkit. All her specials are like this. You can’t even throw most of them out below 50% meter because they’re unsafe.

It'll be very interesting to see what Arc System Works do.

[excelence]

I think anyone comparing guilty mixup to bb mixup would be disappointed if you preferred the former lol. Honestly, I'm pretty sure most people are at least wary of letting Tsubaki get 2+ charges if they know a bit about her already. At the moment it is simply to easy to prevent charging and her combos can be very volatile range-wise. I don't think she needs some crazy tweaks to her charge system. Even if it just happened a decent bit faster it'd be fine.

Tsubaki need moar damage on charge combos~~~ ... seriously when u're kind of used got hit with 4k~5k damage, her damage output're pathetic

[STenSatsu]

4-5k is perfectly fine. You shouldn't be comparing damage to Litchi and such because they are too good. I would more compare damage to Jin/Lamda.

[excelence]

Jin can break 4k pretty easy iirc, all he need is you got hit on crouching state =(, and i'm talking about jin/noel/Rag/Tao that realistically do 4~5k in real match ... err maybe only Ragna can Break 5k practically ... but they still do high damage >_>

[Airk]

Though nobody said Tsubaki shouldn’t have to charge, so that's a bit of a straw man argument.

I felt it was firmly implied in the nature of changes being suggested.

The point is that throwing additional gimmicks at her charge mechanic is not going to fix her pressure, lack of options, instant block susceptibility, combo-filler specials, etc. it's just going to make her charge better, which means higher average damage and more predictable gimmicks. Basically allowing you to beat people you would've beat anyway easier, but not actually helping in disadvantaged match ups.

Yes and no. The trouble is two fold: #1: Her drive is only barely on par with other characters drives when you have charge and #2: Even if it were better, you still can't -get- any charge. Both need to be fixed. Fixing one without the other gets you only minimal gains as you describe.

I also disagree that the D button should supersede all other aspects of the character making them into a one-trick-pony.

Speaking of things no one was suggesting...

The biggest culprit is her combo filler specials. I mean what is 214x? What is its actual purpose? It’s a slow launcher that travels horizontally and can be blocked all. It does the job of a move like Gauntlet Hades/Greed Sever/Bandit Revolver without having any of the other characteristics that make them a useful part of the characters toolkit.

Heck if I know. I agree here. I've been trying to figure out what this move was really supposed to do and coming up empty. I am, as I mentioned elsewhere, distinctly unfond of special moves that exist only to be used in combos and 214x is a textbook case.

All her specials are like this. You can’t even throw most of them out below 50% meter because they’re unsafe.

Now this, on the other hand, I'm not sure I can agree with; I mean, yes, you're correct that you can't just randomly throw out her specials, but that doesn't mean they don't have a purpose. Certainly just because you can't throw them out there without worrying about getting punished is no indicator - a quick glance at the frame data will show you that virtually all special moves across all characters leave you at a disadvantage on block. A small subset are "safe" on normal block, and none of those are safe on instant block. Special moves, almost by definition, aren't things you can just "throw out" there. Could Tsubaki's moves be better at fulfilling their purposes? Yes, definitely, but aside from 214x, I can come up with a purpose for all of them. It's just 214x that feels like it's practically just a followup for 236x.

It'll be very interesting to see what Arc System Works do.

Yes, so will I.

Aside: I'm not familiar with Action Charge, but a little bit of reading in the Order Sol forum gives me a vague idea of the mechanic. It sounds...well, I'm too vague on the important particulars to pass specific judgement, but I'd just like to say that I'm not in favor of poaching ideas from other characters in other games. I'd rather come up with something new and unique rather than go back to something that's already been done.

[Taylor]

I’m perfectly aware that not all special moves are supposed to be safe; I even listed three specific risky overheads. I also know the frame data, which is why I supplied the key word “most” when talking about Rapid Cancels. Though, incidentally, frame data doesn’t tell the whole story of how exposed a special leaves you because of factors like follow-ups and good, old fashioned spacing.

The point was, to put it simply, that she is a character lacking tools and her specials are more slated towards being situational and/or combo filler, thus I’d rather see a focus on expanding them. I do not actually think they are devoid of all purpose.

I don’t really want to get into a backseat design argument so I’ll leave the rest, but here’s exactly how Holy Order Sol’s charge works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUZKZ-TIfKk