DesmondWafers Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Well high-tier tager couldn't be THAT bad >assuming current build + combos into 360's +midair 360's have damage scaling Refer to potemkin. Combos into 360's and midair 360's wouldn't make him high tier, anyway. Henaki made a pretty damn long post about what makes a good grappler some pages back.
Spark Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 You get 4k off j.D with the 5C x2 combo into corner knockdown, you only break 5k(maybe 6k?) if you throw in a 214B.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Personally I think Noel's drive was implemented badly. Her drives are too slow, so they need invincibility to make them viable, which is stupid. She can't stay in a drive stance, so players have to keep mashing and can't stop to think, also stupid. ASW needs to look at Vanguard Princess's Luna mechanics.
Mike Z Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Remove Slidehead from AC Pot and he's just good, not amazing. (Even with Slidehead he has bad matchups!) A grappler should be a decent regular character first before you add command grabs, which Potemkin was. What's everyone's problem with him? However, I recall reading somewhere that Mori&co are keeping Tager crappy because a grappler that's any good makes people not want to play the game. So they are keeping scrubs in mind, unfortunately their only previous example is AC Pot. (^.^)' IMO Tager needs Spark Bolt startup to be projectile invin, a combo rate > 40%, and a cancellable Sledge and he'd be much less crappy, but not overpowered. Give him a real antiair or let him cancel Volt Charge into 720 if they want to be really nice. But nobody listens to Murrica!
psycofang2 Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 You get 4k off j.D with the 5C x2 combo into corner knockdown, you only break 5k(maybe 6k?) if you throw in a 214B. then why is everyone saying jD was too good. its not like we landed it 12 times a fight and if it whiffed or gets baited we get killed for it. maybe im missing something. someone completely explain to me ( a haku player) why jD needs to get nerfed? O_O im listening.
Linear04 Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Personally I think Noel's drive was implemented badly. Her drives are too slow, so they need invincibility to make them viable, which is stupid. She can't stay in a drive stance, so players have to keep mashing and can't stop to think, also stupid. ASW needs to look at Vanguard Princess's Luna mechanics. how does luna work? but yeah, noel's drive seems badly implemented seeing as how it has a stupid long gap between every attack
PCHU Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 I must be totally missing something because I actually enjoy Tager the way he is as of right now. I do agree though; Spark Bolt should be invincible on startup or come out regardless of whether Tager gets hit or not. And can you always do the followup to Sledge, even on whiff? (I have a terrible memory, and don't seem to recall being able to do it) If not, then I think that'd be nice. I do like their ideas so far, though.
RaveDX Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 At this rate, Valkenhayn's gonna be the strongest character in the game TT_TT ... not that I mind, Im definitely gonna add em to my subs or main (who isn't >_>')... but Bangs glory days where so short lived -_-'... At least he's still the manliest character in the game... and epic... don't forget epic... Im just praying to god that they realize the "NO 623B wall bounce" idea is a REALLY horrible one in the current location tests... GOD PLEAS, NOT THE WALL BOUNCE!!
Spark Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 then why is everyone saying jD was too good. its not like we landed it 12 times a fight and if it whiffed or gets baited we get killed for it. maybe im missing something. someone completely explain to me ( a haku player) why jD needs to get nerfed? O_O im listening. It does the most damage of all the counters with 2 stars. It arguably has the least recover if you "tk" it. It has more active frames than 6D and 2D even though it has 1 frame of start up too. If you "tk" it you avoid most lows and throws and by the time they recover they have a hard time punishing and even if they do you're not in CH state on landing. While you could argue that it doesn't really have 1 frame start up because you need to jump first, any slow attacks like overheads or slow projectiles give you enough time to jump and counter anyway. So the way j.D there is almost no reason to do 6D.
mAc Chaos Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 If you're in a tight blockstring and you have to IB... If they just come charging at you with an attack, then yeah, j.D.
psycofang2 Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 snip i knew you could do all of that but i just dont. i play unsafe for the sake of being unsafe. but i understand now. its variety of uses to people with advanced tactics,well it would seem as an insane tool. though i use all his drives under specific situations so i never fully realised all his jDs uses. thanks spark.
Sophisticat Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 I'm not kidding when I say half my damage comes from Hotaru and j.D, they're that good. Unfortunately, it's about all Haku has in terms of easy damage. ;_;
mAc Chaos Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 They should just break Haku's arms and legs then give him back his 6A so he can't do anything but lurch towards you and headbutt. Then he'll be balanced.
RaveDX Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 But... even with the english voices, Ragna still says belial edge o.o'...
dragontamer Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 how does luna work? but yeah, noel's drive seems badly implemented seeing as how it has a stupid long gap between every attack Not really. With a lot of her drives having 0 or 3 hitstop, there's only like 20 frames or so of gap between her drive blockstrings. (Consider this: after factoring in hitstop, Ragna's 5B -> 5C -> 2C are ~25 frames of gap) Choose your drives correctly, and that translates into ~2-frame and ~3 frame holes if normal-blocked and you subtract the hitstun on those attacks (d.6A -> d.5B -> d.6A for example). The main issue with Noel is that she only has one or two true blockstrings in drive, which makes Drive vs anyone with a reversal a poor choice. And only one true blockstring on an instant-blocking opponent. Plus, her overheads and lows are very slow, and they're predictable inside of drive. You can catch people who don't pay attention... ----------- Anyway, she only has invincibility when she starts a drive now. She has no invincibility during a drive anymore, outside of 4D and 2D. Both d.5D and d.6D have no invuln whatsoever. d.214A I guess has invincibility... but everyone can punish that on reaction. Overall, it isn't drive blockstrings that are the problem. Its that 5C -> 5D is a 8-frame hole so everyone can punish it on reaction with whatever they want, and all of Noel's drive enders are unsafe so there is no point in doing it against anyone. If its unsafe to start and unsafe to end, then whats the point?
Shin ATproof Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 They should just break Haku's arms and legs then give him back his 6A so he can't do anything but lurch towards you and headbutt. Then he'll be balanced. LOL BBCS Hakumen with BBCT 6A would be awesome though... I really hope the change to j.D doesn't stay...all ASW had to do if they just had to nerf something with Hakumen was prorate the damage from a j.D so we'd still have the useful application but not be able to take, like 4000+ from it. But hey, if they are willing to trade us the BBCS j.D for his old 6A :3
Klaige Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Would people stop referencing potemkin as what a "top tier" grappler is. Potemkin is not top tier, in fact when you get down to it he's a lot closer to dead mid than he is top even in AC. Now so this isn't a total waste of time post that does nothing but chastise scrubs, does anyone know when the next loc test is?
psycofang2 Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 They should just break Haku's arms and legs then give him back his 6A so he can't do anything but lurch towards you and headbutt. Then he'll be balanced. naw because then ppl getting hit will complain about how he gets so much damge off his 1 normal and asw will be forced to nerf him again.
felipebwk Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Would people stop referencing potemkin as what a "top tier" grappler is. Potemkin is not top tier, in fact when you get down to it he's a lot closer to dead mid than he is top even in AC. Now so this isn't a total waste of time post that does nothing but chastise scrubs, does anyone know when the next loc test is? Pot is not "S-tier" because of characters like Testament and Eddy (which dominate the game). They have a capacity of Zoning out of the ordinary, which is too bad for a slow character and made to fight at close range ... The fact is, Pot is so good that its "mach-up" against Test. / Eddy is not enough to be "that Bad", I think this house in 4.0-4.5, if I'm not mistaken ... characters who struggle against the short distance and almost invincible Potekin, if used properly ... I can accept the idea that tagger need Buff., but sure! i don't want "Pot. 2" sorry for my english...
Hecatom Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 seriously people, ASW doesnt nerf the chars because people complaint about them, they dont care of what the scrubs have to say when it comes to balance their games, geez
whitevoid Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 To be honest, I don't think her Drive is THAT bad. You just need to realize that she has over twice as many Drive moves as most people, but it's not like every other character is going to mash D for the win or they have like 12 awesome Drive attacks. You don't really use Makoto's Drive attacks outside of combos, but I don't really see people give her a hard time about that. But plenty of Noel's Drive attacks (mostly the starters) are actually solid attacks, and her Drive pretty is essential for her combos. I think it's less that there is something terribly, terribly wrong with it, and more that there is just a lot of it that is fairly irrelevant and so there is a lot to critique. Jin's 5D isn't a particularly good move, but it is just one move. Even though it's 25% of his 4 (meterless) Drive moves, it's still just one move. Noel has like 25% of her Drive moves being good, but she has like 15 of them so there are a lot more of them that aren't particularly good.
RaveDX Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Not that I'm opposed to them changing things up, but I think when most people heard "Balance Patch" they were not imagining something on this scale. The way it was being talked about you would have thought it was "A damage tweak there, increase proration on that, less heat gain off this move, etc." Not flip the tier list, cock slap Ragna, Bang and Litchi on the way down and give Rachel and Tsubaki an elevator ride to Top Tier (Exaggeration, but you get the point). Bottom line, I'm just concerned that rather than actual "Balance" all that will be created is a "Ok, these characters have their turn in the spotlight now" situation, as opposed to "Ok, all characters are pretty legit now". But yeah, first test and all not too worried. Thank you.
mundus Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 Pot is not "S-tier" because of characters like Testament and Eddy (which dominate the game). They have a capacity of Zoning out of the ordinary, which is too bad for a slow character and made to fight at close range ... The fact is, Pot is so good that its "mach-up" against Test. / Eddy is not enough to be "that Bad", I think this house in 4.0-4.5, if I'm not mistaken ... characters who struggle against the short distance and almost invincible Potekin, if used properly ... I can accept the idea that tagger need Buff., but sure! i don't want "Pot. 2" sorry for my english... Potemkin - Eddie is like 7-3 for Eddie. And the character Potemkin is a monster, but he is far from unbeatable, hell half the cast got loops that pretty much oneshots him.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 words I don't mean that her speed makes her bad. I realize that her blockstun is actually pretty good during her drives, but she shouldn't NEED good blockstun and other weird properties for this mechanic. I'm saying that Noel's drive mechanic is a failure conceptually. The move speed should be fast enough and have enough range that it doesn't need weird properties like huge blockstun or invulnerability. Ideally her drive would be something that should be used at range and indeed SHOULD be extremely punishable up close especially if the opponent reads your drive chain. Having these weird not at all obvious invincible properties that the player has to memorize in order to punish properly is stupid in the first place. I STILL vividly remember ID-ing through a gap in Hellmonkey's D string at the first AX loketest and eating shit because Noel was invincible through the ID. I called bullshit, but nobody believed me because there is NO visual indication at all that any of those moves aside from spring-raid are invincible ANYWHERE. To un-fail this mechanic, you would need to remove its weird-ass properties, namely the dumb blockstun and invincibility. And then in order to make it not suck, you would have to increase its range and speed.
felipebwk Posted September 14, 2010 Posted September 14, 2010 seriously people, ASW doesnt nerf the chars because people complaint about them, they dont care of what the scrubs have to say when it comes to balance their games, geez I believe you are correct, however, after which they made with Ragna, I really begin to doubt that idea ... lol If it change the gameplay much, and it becomes a more difficult character to play, I consider acceptable ... but if they "destroy" him, I'll be disappointed ...
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