[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[NeoStrider69]

J

001

666-66-6666

5' something

All diseases. Yes, all of them.

Gonna try out Extend Tsubaki later at CEO Winterfest today. Gonna be a fun day~

Thank you for your time, expect the monopoly money whenever its possible

Oh, have fun at CEO WF

[BatousaiJ]

You never pay me sir. Ever.

Gonna try out Extend Tsubaki later at CEO Winterfest today. Gonna be a fun day~

I pay you in something better than money.

Brownie points.

That's going to be worth more than anything else in the world when I take over the universe~

Have fun at winterfest~

[Airk]

I pay you in something better than money.

Brownie points.

Screw brownie points, I want REAL brownies. Points may pay off someday, but chocolate pays off now.

[Velvien]

I must agree with Airk on this one. Brownies. Now.

[pktazn]

Special brownies or just regular brownies?

Currently having a blast at Winterfest. Extend Tsubaki isn't too bad. I just really want to go to training mode and work on combos since I'm hit confirming but I know it's not the best it can be aha. Also match-up experience is a plus

[NeoStrider69]

I wish I could have played some of the Extend Tsubaki x.X any inside details of her use to share?

[NoelRin]

I wish I could have played some of the Extend Tsubaki x.X any inside details of her use to share?

Yeah, I'd would like to know this also. I herd a lot of moves became unsafe and that 5BB isn't really good to combo with now.

[Rhiya]

I wish I could have played some of the Extend Tsubaki x.X any inside details of her use to share?

You must meet one of the following requirements to use EX Tsubaki:

-Extreme skill

-Extreme masochism

-Being BatousaiJ, Kiba, or Kuresu

-Some combination of the above

[pktazn]

Nothing that hasn't been said already. You can feel the difference but it's not hard at all to adjust to Extend Tsu. I was able to start doing the IAD combo after a few matches and I could do the blah blah > j.236A(w) > j.214D > stuff in the corner off the bat.

It's all pretty much just going to training mode now to get combos down consistently as well as having more time to try to really explore how her moves changed, for me at least.

Edited January 22, 2012 by pktazn

[NoelRin]

Now what if you only have CS2? What should I be practicing while preparing for Extend (sorry, don't really want to go through all the previous posts).

[pktazn]

Most of what she can do in terms of combos still seems to work for Extend for the most part, except for the DP whiff. If you've practiced anything for combos in CS2 then it will still pretty much carry over and all that you'd need to do is adjust to her Extend changes like the timing and whatnot but it really isn't that drastic. Like I said, I was able to start doing her adjusted IAD combos after a couple of matches.

Besides combos how you'll approach with her is different due to the nerfs she received but that's more with match-up experience than anything. What I got from my limited time is just that I have to be more careful and play smarter than I used to.

Someone who's had it longer could probably answer it in more detail since I really was only able to play maybe a total of 3-3 1/2 hours out of the 6 I was there. This is just what I felt from when I had played it.

[Kiba]

Yeah, I'd would like to know this also. I herd a lot of moves became unsafe and that 5BB isn't really good to combo with now.

All of Tsubaki's moves (including her specials) are unsafe, maybe with the exception to 6B.

Now what if you only have CS2? What should I be practicing while preparing for Extend (sorry, don't really want to go through all the previous posts).

• IAD combos
  
• Using 3CC more in combos to amplify damage. It fatals in EX.
  
• Using 5BB less for combo starters, and using 5A/5C more. 5BB prorates more.
  
• Ending combos with 22B rather than 22C. 22C has more recovery. 22B has more untechable time apparently.
  
• Using j.D more since it gets you stock the quickest. That includes using it in combos, e.g 623C - j.236A(w) - j.214D -j.D (corner)
  
• Using 236C/D less as a means of getting in (as they are more unsafe) and moving around a lot more.
  
• Using 5B less as a poke, and jump cancelling/charge cancelling it more often, especially if done in point blank range. It has more recovery and is unsafe.
  
• Using Mugen as you'd use it more in EX since it amplifies damage
  

[TheGreatReptar]

6B is still +. The only other move that might still be + on block is 5A. Can't really test it how I've tested her other moves since it's jump cancelable, and since it chains into itself, it's hard to record a 5A, then link another 5A and try to jab out of it. 22C not being + on block still feels so crippling D:

[Rhiya]

6B is still +. The only other move that might still be + on block is 5A. Can't really test it how I've tested her other moves since it's jump cancelable, and since it chains into itself, it's hard to record a 5A, then link another 5A and try to jab out of it. 22C not being + on block still feels so crippling D:

5A can only chain into itself 3 times. Would that limitation let you test it?

[TheGreatReptar]

Ohhhh yeaaaaa. Let me try that real quick.

If you record [5Ax3] chained, then 5A, you can jab the recording out of 5A all the time, so I guess it's -. Then again, I might not be recording linked 5A right. I did try like 5 or 6 times on 5 or 6 recordings though, and I could jab all of them out of the linked jab. I don't really like this way of testing for +/- much.

Edited January 23, 2012 by TheGreatReptar

[Kiba]

V. Character Parameters

Tsubaki

Reward Assessment: B+ Rank

Neutral Viability: B Rank

Offensive Viability: B Rank

Defensive Viability: B+ Rank

Versatility: B Rank

Complexity: B Rank

Current Assessment: B Rank

Seems reasonable. Though I wonder why he ranked her defensive viability and reward assessment as B+. I personally would've ranked it a little lower.

Guess we'll find out sooner or later.

[Airk]

Ohhhh yeaaaaa. Let me try that real quick.

If you record [5Ax3] chained, then 5A, you can jab the recording out of 5A all the time, so I guess it's -. Then again, I might not be recording linked 5A right. I did try like 5 or 6 times on 5 or 6 recordings though, and I could jab all of them out of the linked jab. I don't really like this way of testing for +/- much.

Considering that 5A was negative in CS2, the odds of it being plus in EX are, in my opinion, slim to none.

>resists the urge to say something bitter<

[redsilversnake]

Seems reasonable. Though I wonder why he ranked her defensive viability and reward assessment as B+. I personally would've ranked it a little lower.

Guess we'll find out sooner or later.

Reward assessment is probably because she still gets decent damage and hard KD without stock while getting noticeably more of the former without sacrificing the latter with at least one charge. Defensive viability is most likely taking into account her 623D (and 2C, depending on his definition of defense); if he is including 2C, I can see how he'd classify her defense as B+. If not, though, I'd be inclined to agree with you and place it at B- or C+.

[Airk]

Seems reasonable. Though I wonder why he ranked her defensive viability and reward assessment as B+. I personally would've ranked it a little lower.

Guess we'll find out sooner or later.

I wouldn't be too cheerful about it, considering that he currently rates Makoto better overall (She manages an A in Neutral.)

I'm assuming the B+ in defensive viability comes as a result of A) Having a DP (The characters who rank poorly in defensive viability tend to lack one. Lambda, Tao, etc.) and uh, maybe B) 214X series invulnerability. B+ Reward assessment is probably a result of her having more options for leading into high damage than some characters. (22D, 3C, 5C, 6C). You could argue for B without the plus in both categories, but frankly, the one that confuses me is neutral viability.

[TheGreatReptar]

Considering that 5A was negative in CS2, the odds of it being plus in EX are, in my opinion, slim to none.

>resists the urge to say something bitter<

Lol oops. I thought 5A was the one that was + and 2A was - in CS2 for some reason. I'll test with 2A later.

[Airk]

Lol oops. I thought 5A was the one that was + and 2A was - in CS2 for some reason. I'll test with 2A later.

I thought we'd already concluded that 2A had had it's attack level reduced, and was therefore no better than even.

[Kiba]

Reward Assessment: A general outlook on a character’s average damage and heat gain, taking into account how often maximum or minimum damage situations can occur. Also assess other potential rewards.

Defensive Viability: An evaluation of the character’s ability to escape from situations where they are at a disadvantage or create opportunities to retaliate.

Reward assessment is probably because she still gets decent damage and hard KD without stock while getting noticeably more of the former without sacrificing the latter with at least one charge. Defensive viability is most likely taking into account her 623D (and 2C, depending on his definition of defense); if he is including 2C, I can see how he'd classify her defense as B+. If not, though, I'd be inclined to agree with you and place it at B- or C+.

Tsubaki is very inconsistent with her damage output without stock, and her meter gain is not exactly really good. Although she can get good damage of some starters like 5C and 6C, they are not as realistic as the others. Scoring a 2B hit on a crouching opponent midscreen nets her 1.8K? In the corner, it'll be like 2-2.2K? I think she's good at consistently giving low damage. Her 70% combo rate doesn't help her either.

However, Tsubaki is cool in the fact that she has the ability to increase her damage output with stock. Heck she can even increase it further with mugen.

Other reward factors may include positional advantage from her combos. This varies with the type of combo you use, but midscreen, mostly you'll knock the opponent away with 22X and use that time to get more stock which benefits her neutral game. She gets the added bonus of 236D and even using followups after it in an attempt to catch the opponent. She even gets an unblockable. Her being able to cancel her specials intro drive specials is also a massive plus. Even though not as good, she still rocks 5B, and the 22X series for getting CHs. Anyway I'm pretty comfortable with seeing a solid B for her neutral game. I would've handed it down for her defensive play and her reward assessment too.

Moving on to defensive play. She has two DPs which is a plus. 623B will not get counted because realistically in a match it won't be used. They themselves can even be cancelled into drive specials, but both methods are not safe and generally leave you vulnerable. The real downside is that the nature of her DPs cause it to clash with too many attacks, or she might even get hit out of it completely because of the lack of priority. Like you said snake, she has one of the best AAs in the game which leads to good corner carry and decent damage. That's probably why I would've given her a solid B for defensive play.

I agree with you Snake.

I wouldn't be too cheerful about it, considering that he currently rates Makoto better overall (She manages an A in Neutral.)

I'm assuming the B+ in defensive viability comes as a result of A) Having a DP (The characters who rank poorly in defensive viability tend to lack one. Lambda, Tao, etc.) and uh, maybe B) 214X series invulnerability. B+ Reward assessment is probably a result of her having more options for leading into high damage than some characters. (22D, 3C, 5C, 6C). You could argue for B without the plus in both categories, but frankly, the one that confuses me is neutral viability.

Even the 214X is skewed in its usefulness during most games, because there are very few situations where you'd use it as an escape manouvere. You'd mostly be offensive with it. However, I do agree with you too, but this makes me even more curious as to what others think.

~Hurrr

[Airk]

Even though not as good, she still rocks 5B,

Actually, unless other people got nerfed in this department too I think Tsubaki now has one of the worst 5Bs in the game. The range isn't really that good except when compared to how bad the range is on the rest of her moves, it's SUPER SLOW for a 5B, and it no longer offers any meaningful pressure by itself because you HAVE to cancel it on block to avoid being negative. It's a tool that gets used because we have nothing else to fulfill that role in extend, not because it is good.

[redsilversnake]

Tsubaki is very inconsistent with her damage output without stock, and her meter gain is not exactly really good. Although she can get good damage of some starters like 5C and 6C, they are not as realistic as the others. Scoring a 2B hit on a crouching opponent midscreen nets her 1.8K? In the corner, it'll be like 2-2.2K? I think she's good at consistently giving low damage. Her 70% combo rate doesn't help her either.

Hence why I said "decent," not "good." It is indeed inconsistent, but from what I've seen, it still usually hovers around 2k and doesn't often go lower.

Even though not as good, she still rocks 5B, and the 22X series for getting CHs.

Well, as Airk keeps pointing out, it is rather poor for a 5B now, so it's not nearly as useful as it was in CS2. Granted, there are three ways to cancel it, but it does change her neutral game, especially midscreen.

Like you said snake, she has one of the best AAs in the game which leads to good corner carry and decent damage.

Indeed. Very glad to see it unchanged, at least for the most part.

[Kiba]

Actually, unless other people got nerfed in this department too I think Tsubaki now has one of the worst 5Bs in the game. The range isn't really that good except when compared to how bad the range is on the rest of her moves, it's SUPER SLOW for a 5B, and it no longer offers any meaningful pressure by itself because you HAVE to cancel it on block to avoid being negative. It's a tool that gets used because we have nothing else to fulfill that role in extend, not because it is good.

Wait.

The range on 5B is still amazing. For a 5B, the range is fantastic. There isn't another character maybe except for Platinum that possesses a 5B that can measure up to (or beat) that range.

Question:I was wondering about Tsubaki's rankings for neutral and defense. Her nerfs aren't too bad (imo) but were the Tsubakis you saw/went against doing anything that helped you come to this conclusion? Her defensive options seem somewhat limited since they're not as reliable compared to other characters but it was still ranked as a B+. Is it because of her 2C? I admit I was only first able to play Extend this past weekend so I have very limited experience with the new Tsubaki and felt that a majority of her changes are subtle so it will probably "click" as I put more time into her but I'm really interested in reading what helped you to rank her as you did. However, I'd like to add that I do mostly agree with how you ranked Tsubaki in her character parameters from the little experience I had with her and videos. She's definitely viable, but can easily be overshadowed to the more higher ranked characters.

Answer: @pktazn My assessment is mostly based on the dual tandem of both A DP and D DP (+followups). They are both flawed as reversals, but an opponent who is aware of your current meter situation will be forced to play slightly more safe in a given offensive situation. It is similar to Jin, who has an fast, amazing reversal (623D), which gives his really weird, slow reversal (623C) effectiveness in defensive situations.

Well there you have it. I can dig it.