[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Afrikaan]

Snippity snip snip.

Glorious. Could not have said it any better

I still don't get how they made the Unreal Engine look GOOD, let alone make it look like sprites at first glance. Apparently Daisuke's team has some sorcerers in its midst.

I'm a little ignorant of the game engine world. What's all the fuss about the game being run on Unreal 3?

[Star-Demon]

Unreal 3's been adapted to a lot of poor tasks over its life . I can think of a few examples in my head of games which wasted its abilities and structure, not really having a lot of understanding of it. (EX: Adapting it to render a very large seamless world)

Ultimately, though, the people that throw around criticism at Unreal 3 are the same lot who probably thought they could license Unreal 3 and have their game auto-done, resulting in the bad games that served as examples of unreal 3 and so the circle goes on.

I think Unreal 3 is more than capable to render and play a game inside a fighting game stage. I think anyone that has the standard tools of the trade can make it happen.

[reaVer]

Heh, with a little hackz, we can get the AVA or Borderlands shaders in and we have a different looking GG :D Or we can do vice versa of course!

[Kitsoru]

I personally pronounce it "Zurd" as I assume the intention is word play to make it sound like "Third" as X and XX were never pronounced as such (ゼクス/Zekusu and イグゼクス/Iguzekusu respectively).

But yeah I wouldn't mind him as the announcer, but it would be nice to hear from Gregory Payne again XD

That was my assumption on the name too. And oh man I miss Gregory Payne, the Accent Core announcer is awful :|

[Sym_]

They could be easier while preserving their properties.

Take SFII For instance. If I recall correctly, doing a proper reversal on wake-up is a one frame deal, no? That game, if I recall correctly, has no buffers and rather strict input requirements in general.

That said, I think we can all agree that GG not requiring the same strictness of SFII is a good thing.

I think FRCs can be made easier to preform with either a buffer or a "hold the button down" deal, while still preserving their properties.

This is a silly comparison. The characters in SF2 are far more basic and the game as whole is far less complex. DPs and fireballs are very powerful in this game so it is totally understandable and LOGICAL that these moves require you to master a skill in order to use them.

[Narroo]

This is a silly comparison. The characters in SF2 are far more basic and the game as whole is far less complex. DPs and fireballs are very powerful in this game so it is totally understandable and LOGICAL that these moves require you to master a skill in order to use them.

Why? Why does the game being simpler mean that should DPs be harder to execute?

[Sym_]

Why? Why does the game being simpler mean that should DPs be harder to execute?

I already explained why, DPs are very strong in that game.

I am in total shock seeing SO many players feel execution is nothing more than a nuisance.

Why don't we just ask ARC to make a GG card game. Nothin' but mind games yo.

[mAc Chaos]

I actually feel that there is a place for an execution barrier. It actually affects the mind games.

For instance, 720s. The fact that you need to spin the stick twice creates game situations in pressure that wouldn't exist if it was just pressing a single button.

I mean, there's an execution barrier in sports too. But plenty of people play those.

[Digital Watches]

Sym: I've yet to hear your reasoning for why something that isn't an interaction between the two players should be a gameplay focus. You've re-stated your perspective several times, but you've never explained your reasoning. You say something being strong should make it hard to execute. Why is that worthwhile? What does it add to the game? Should blocking be made harder, since it's the strongest gameplay mechanic in fighters?

Mac: I would agree, except that there are people who can and do do that under pressure. Consistently. It's really straight up just a matter of practice. Like I said, I'm glad to practice whatever thing I need to in order to be able to play a given game, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a good thing that it exists. It just means that the people who can actually make their character do the things they want them to do will have a smaller pool of people who can also do that to play against. It means that there will be less people who can play the game at a higher level, and therefore that there will be competition-plateaus at which good players stop improving because the people they're playing haven't even gotten past the minimum entry barrier to play at that level. I'm not saying we should strive to get rid of all execution barriers, because that's impossible and some execution barriers are worthwhile (Like blocking and parrying quickly), but certainly we can agree that there's no particular interesting thing happening because of like, KoF-style 8246828282828A+B+C commands existing or whatever.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Digital Watches

[mAc Chaos]

The possibility of messing up an input creates a risk reward that has its own mind games.

For example, suppose I had you in pressure and was throwing in lots of frame traps, etc. You might want to do a certain move, that would require pushing forward during the input, or down-forward. That would require you to stop blocking while you are doing the move, and make it so the opponent can actually hit you out of it mid input. In other words, you got baited. Or at least messed up during the pressure.

Now the player under pressure has to consider the odds of the opponent watching out for that, or if they can pull it off in time. That in turn makes it so the player pressuring has a certain expectation for what the person they're pressuring is going to try and do.

But you lose all that if all you need to do is hold down/back + a button to do a DP or something.

I would do this to Makoto's in BB all the time when they IB + DP. The moment they IB I know they are going for a DP, which involves a 623 input, and cancel into a low which catches them out of the 6 input before the DP comes out. That in turn makes the Makoto more hesitant to DP out next time even on IB and lets me pressure them more.

Actually, that's not even messing up an input. It's just the fact that the input requires certain movements having gameplay effects.

Edited May 22, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[reaVer]

Blocking is NOT strong vs Potemkin :D

[reaVer]

The possibility of messing up an input creates a risk reward that has its own mind games.

I think we already covered this. There is no such thing as difficult to execute as players get better and better at the game. 1 frame FRCs are not difficult once you get the grasp for them and combos aren't even remotely hard when you've done them over a million times. The stronger players get, the less execution plays a factor in the game. Difficult execution does nothing but increase the height of the initial hump players have to get over. And for your example, first of all, dragon punching during offense is very unlikely to hit... Secondly, you can input the dragonpunch while you're doing the attack that is getting impact guarded and link it from the recovery. This can be done in any fighter, GG/BB is no exception to this.

[mAc Chaos]

> And for your example, first of all, dragon punching during offense is very unlikely to hit...

No I meant, DP during defense.

I'm playing as Hakumen, opponent is Makoto or Ragna, someone with a DP. I'm pressuring them, they IB my latest move and go to DP, which requires doing a 623C input. However, I'm expecting this, so I cancel my last IB'd attack right into Renka, which is a low. It catches them out of the 6 input, and they get hit.

So now next time, there is a mind game after they IB, will I go low or not, will it be safe to try and DP? That hesitation creates an opening for me to pressure more.

I was giving that as an example of how a higher barrier could create interesting gameplay situations, rather than having it be a 1 button DP or something like that, which would do away with this scenario.

[Digital Watches]

The possibility of messing up an input creates a risk reward that has its own mind games.

For example, suppose I had you in pressure and was throwing in lots of frame traps, etc. You might want to do a certain move, that would require pushing forward during the input, or down-forward. That would require you to stop blocking while you are doing the move, and make it so the opponent can actually hit you out of it mid input. In other words, you got baited. Or at least messed up during the pressure.

Now the player under pressure has to consider the odds of the opponent watching out for that, or if they can pull it off in time. That in turn makes it so the player pressuring has a certain expectation for what the person they're pressuring is going to try and do.

But you lose all that if all you need to do is hold down/back + a button to do a DP or something.

I would do this to Makoto's in BB all the time when they IB + DP. The moment they IB I know they are going for a DP, which involves a 623 input, and cancel into a low which catches them out of the 6 input before the DP comes out. That in turn makes the Makoto more hesitant to DP out next time even on IB and lets me pressure them more.

Actually, that's not even messing up an input. It's just the fact that the input requires certain movements having gameplay effects.

So what's to stop the makoto from buffering the input during the hitfreeze, and getting it consistently? Does the ability to do that make the game worse? If so, the game is already worse. Situations you're describing are not a serious part of high-level play because it's the exact kind of thing that people who have practiced enough don't have to deal with. But it's also a completely non-interactive element because of that. If I sat home and practiced doing the input fast enough to finish it before the buffer window was over, I could easily choose to block or DP as the situation demanded, and this is not actually a skill level it's particularly hard to attain. Does getting good at the game make the game less interesting? Your argument would say that it does.

I don't particularly object to DPs having the motion that they do, because it's kind of a trivial barrier and we'd run out of inputs or do things more accidentally if they were much simpler than that (Though quarter circles aren't bad as DP inputs either), but it's silly to say that the execution barrier is adding something to the game when anyone can just practice enough to not deal with it. There are some choices that make sense, or are reasonable compromises on this issue, and I don't think we should rigorously go through and try to eliminate everything some people have a hard time doing. But if we can for sure say that there's no compromise being made, easier is better.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Agni]

All this FRC talk really comes down to a philosophical belief of whether or not execution belongs in fighting games. In theory, we could make the game like Injustice where you can chain moves together as early as you want. We could create an IAD button. We could, eventually, remove every remotely difficult thing about the game's execution so that matches only come down to decision-making. Is that a good or a bad thing? It's really just a matter of opinion, but I think most of us would agree we don't want to see that happen.

While I agree that adding a buffer window to FRCs wouldn't affect gameplay too much, it begs the question: why not do more? FRCs aren't even the most difficult thing about the game, after all, and they're one of the last things a new player notices/will mess around with. Why not give each character a bunch of near-optimal auto-combos and simplify all the more difficult inputs (like I-No's HCL)? Would that make the game better? I, personally, support execution requirements in fighting games, and I like the fact that GG has a wide range of characters with easy to difficult execution. You can relax these execution requirements a bit, but I feel like once you start going overboard (yes, extending every FRC window by 5 frames is massively overboard), you're hurting the spirit of the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_fallacy

A happening does not imply that B will happen.

And: A game is not good because it's hard to play unless that difficulty has an actual purpose existing. GG is not good because of how hard it is but because it's a finely crafted and highly honed FG. The only reason people prop up difficult systems is because they feel the need to flaunt their "superiority" to other games because they mastered the controls.

Chess would not be better if the pieces attacked you while you played. At the top level, difficulty is moot anyway, so why does it matter?

Edited May 22, 2013 by Agni

[floatwater]

Uh if this is about GG's execution barrier then i'm a fucking 12'ver for fucks sake. i am all for it to still be hard to learn.

Basically what Digi is saying i agree with.

[mAc Chaos]

But Digi is saying it shouldn't be hard to learn. :V

Anyway, I'm not sure I understand your response Digital. Either I never knew about this or you are just saying that the Makoto buffers the DP during blockstun? But if they IB'd, they have to immediately go from the 4 input and go into 623C to get the move out before the next attack.

I think you are misunderstanding my point though. I'm not saying, "We should make the game artificially harder so there are more gameplay situations when you are still learning the game," but that certain kinds of inputs can create different situations. For instance, having to push forward to do a move makes it more dangerous than just being able to push a single button. So that means certain kinds of moves, just by virtue of the inputs they require, can create interesting gameplay situations no matter how good you get at doing it, because it requires you to place yourself in a certain situation (not blocking) to do it.

So it's not about getting an input consistently, it's that the input itself requires doing something that puts you in a dangerous state.

I remember being contrasting the Persona DPs with traditional kinds for this reason.

Edited May 22, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[Blade]

Related more to the topic that isn't meta battles...someone mentioned Pachi...is he the guy who 'predicted' Guilty Gear would be more like Street Fighter IV?

If so, I'd like to know his source. If not...who was? I distinctly remember a conversation on Dustloop regarding that (a beer with an ARCsys dev or so I heard).

Also, regarding source...someone also mentioned the guy who does the vocals for "Heavy Day" was part of a band called Outrage...as in OutRage?!? I never heard of a J-Rock band named OutRage, so I'd like to know more.

Sources please!

@Digital Watches:...I suck at inputs for a lot of things for various reasons...crappy old D-Pad not being responsive being one of them...would you say that accounts for "thinking differently" during a match? (i.e. falling back on another tactic if I don't do an input correctly?)

Also, what's your opinion on moves with elaborate inputs, such as Ivy's command throws in the Soul Calibur games (or Dizzy's Necro's Anger input)...should they remain difficult? Or should they be made easier and just be nerfed in some other way?

[Digital Watches]

@Mac: I'm not even sure what you mean. First off, yes, you can definitely buffer an input that requires holding forward before you are out of blockstun, obviating the need to ever actually stop blocking (Because while you're in blockstun, you're still considered to be blocking). But even if that were not the case, inputs are accepted during the pause caused by the attack connecting. This is the basis of a whole ton of buffer tricks, and it means that what you are saying is strictly not true of players who know this and have the execution to do it. There's literally no reason why having to hit forward as part of the DP motion will make a player who has practiced enough to do it fast stop blocking. What I'm saying is that between two players who know this and have practiced enough, the situation you describe is simply not true. Does this make higher-level play less interesting than play between beginners? I would argue it doesn't.

@Blade: Why should the inputs being made easier necessitate nerfing the move at all? If they're straight up too hard for anyone to do, there's no reason for them to be in the game. If you can get good at them with practice and do them consistently, the difficulty of the input is making no difference to the gameplay. I don't see your point.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Kitsoru]

Also, regarding source...someone also mentioned the guy who does the vocals for "Heavy Day" was part of a band called Outrage...as in OutRage?!? I never heard of a J-Rock band named OutRage, so I'd like to know more.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=outrage+band

[dioxideUniversa]

saying "it needs to be nerfed because it was made easier" is basically saying "the only reason it's not overpowered is because most people can't do it" which isn't a very good reason for why something isn't overpowered

[Sym_]

Sym: I've yet to hear your reasoning for why something that isn't an interaction between the two players should be a gameplay focus. You've re-stated your perspective several times, but you've never explained your reasoning. You say something being strong should make it hard to execute. Why is that worthwhile? What does it add to the game?

Mac: I would agree, except that there are people who can and do do that under pressure. Consistently. It's really straight up just a matter of practice. Like I said, I'm glad to practice whatever thing I need to in order to be able to play a given game, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a good thing that it exists.

There are multiple reasons why there SHOULD be execution barriers put in place. My question is this, when should it stop? Should we just keep removing all the execution requirements? Are things like zoning, footsies etc. more meaningful to a game than execution? Maybe they are, maybe not. But I feel everyone is undermining execution simply because they are too lazy to practice. Execution, like zoning and footsies takes time to master. Even though execution is mostly just putting in time in training mode there are other elements to it. How good can you hit confirm against players you've never played against? Can you land your combos in crunch time? Can you regain yourself mentally if you dropped a combo in crunch time??

Am I the only one who finds that aspect intriguing? Sure looks like it...

My SF2 argument asks similar questions. Are you willing to try and throw out a dp, knowing you may botch the input, when your health is low?

ETC. ETC.

Now there is also a whole 'nother topic we can get into...

Execution imo has also been used in gg in other ways... not only balancing the game but varying the learning experience of the characters in the cast and thus creating different paths you take as you attempt to master a character. Let's take sol and ino for example...

Sol is one of the more basic characters in the game, his bnbs are super easy. Yes his sidewinder loops are somewhat character specific but really they are not THAT hard. Right off the bat you have great tools, good dp, awesome anti air, good normals, etc. All of these fairly easy to utilize. But lets say you spend time to learn your gunflame frc to pressure your opponents and you have your sidewinder combos down, you are ready to rock, right?.WRONG, I remember this stage very clearly...it didn't matter if I could hit my combos, my opponents were not falling for my "mixup" and I found myself up against a massive road block...his mixup SUCKS. Your new challenge is now making his mixup good. This is a pretty abstract skill to master, you have to create some sort of x factor, a way of being unpredictable with predictable oki.

Now on the contrary, I started practicing I-no about 3 months ago to hold me over until +R comes out (big mistake on my part.) Her difficulty is presented to you right up front, it is plain to see what your job is. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Her mixup will work, how could it not? It's fucking godly. But you cannot even BEGIN to think of mixing up your opponent until you have put your time in training mode. Your win rate will be DIRECTLY correlated to how well you can hit your combos.

Both were/are entirely unique experiences and helped expand my perspective of the game and what characters in fighting games can be.

Should blocking be made harder, since it's the strongest gameplay mechanic in fighters?

Blocking in this game is quite the challenge already , wouldn't you say?

[_rFX]

-

Idk. I'm probably just misinterpreting your posts, but you kinda make it sound like those top players are robots that never drop anything ever...

Mistakes can obviously be diminished through practice/experience/skill, but is it ever truly a non-factor altogether?

If you sit at home practicing something for hours on end, does it eliminate any and all possibilities of you ever screwing it up in the heat of the moment?

It just doesn't strike me as some trivial barrier for new players that you can eventually surpass and never be bothered by again. It seems prevalent to some degree at all levels, even if the degree is inversely proportional to said level.

It's the human element. Input errors. Questionable moves. You can't really eliminate it. It's essentially the foundation that all competition is based on. Who will screw up less; who's closer to that unattainable goal of perfection.

saying "it needs to be nerfed because it was made easier" is basically saying "the only reason it's not overpowered is because most people can't do it" which isn't a very good reason for why something isn't overpowered

Isn't that the concept behind stuff like just-frame moves though? I think it gives characters a certain limitlessness to them that's inspiring in a way, but I guess I can see the flip-side of it too. *shrug*

[Digital Watches]

Other stuff

Be honest: Do you think Daigo is worried about botching the input at any moment when he needs a DP?

Blocking in this game is quite the challenge already , wouldn't you say?

Sure. It's exactly the right kind of execution barrier: The kind that derives its difficulty from an interaction between the two players actually playing the game. There's nothing I need to go to training mode to grind out to be able to block an attack, but it's still something that's hard to do sometimes, because it involves watching what's actually going on in the game and making a hard choice at lightning speed. Reflexes make it interesting. Mental game makes it interesting. It's not a game you could play with cards, because the speed aspect of it is genuinely interesting. I can't think of a change to blocking that would make it easier but not stupid. But we agree that there's no particular difficult execution barrier per se here. Hitting back or down-back is pretty much entirely simple, and yet because of what blocking does, and how opponents can try to mess with your ability to block their attacks, it is an interesting gameplay mechanic that involves all of these aspects. Blocking being hard plays to my point perfectly.

[Klein]

I'm not sure Daigo would have the balls to DP an overhead unless the execution barrier was a single button, jussayin.

And there's more to GG's execution barrier than just making beginners sad, and giving people that get off on learning rock hard erections.

It limits your character's strengths in it's own way. If Ky's DP could be cancelled for 25 meter at ANY stage in it's animation, that would change a lot of how you think about his wakeup game wouldn't it?