Justice7541 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 this discussion is getting kinda ridiculous, Ragna's DP is really good but it's because he has a lot of other shortcomings as a character to balance it out. It will never be nerfed. I don't really want to compare apples and oranges but Kagura's DP is objectively better and he's a much worse character. Kagura's DP is nowhere as good as ID. Yes, it is safe on air block and yes, it is much easier to do on split-second reaction because it's only one motion (8) rather than 3 (623). That said: - Kagura has no "bait counter" option. If Ragna reads an an attempt to bait his DP by blocking, backdash, etc. he can just 5B and get pressure or straight-up punish it. Against Kagura all you need to do is back up a tiny bit and block and he can't do anything to reverse the situation because his dash is so slow and his normals are so short. In most cases the worst-case scenario for Kagura reading your bait is that you don't get to straight-up punish him. - Kagura's DP is a charger. This means it not only loses to every other invul move that will clash with it (i.e. Ragna's DP) since you can't do it repeatedly, but you also can't do it after the opponent forces you to block an overhead since you lose your charge. - For the same reason, you can't do it quickly if the opponent does an otherwise DPable string that you block while not already crouching. I.e. you block Hazama's chain while dashing in and he D pulls in = you can't DP it. I understand the temptation to respond to hyperbole with hyperbole but there's no way in hell that Ragna's DP is not the best DP in the game.
D.R.F. Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Well it doesn't. kokonoes ball CAN be beat by throwing koko or... maybe a distortion drive? I gotta test that Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Loli Bacon Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 How are you supposed to beat this move. Even if I know it's coming the ball still comes down on me while I'm comboing Koko. That ish should go away when she gets hit. Why? I spent 50 meter on it. Work around it. I'm still punishable. Anyway, reading the famitsu article, I think I read that Unlimited characters will be available in the arcade version but "They probably won't be allowed during event mode... (high certainty, meaning tournaments) Since Unlimited characters will be in the arcade version, will they be tournament legal for us? :v
Circuitous Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Next time someone says something ignorant, can we not waste several pages debating it? Please and thank you.
Nakkiel Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Kagura's DP is nowhere as good as ID. Yes, it is safe on air block and yes, it is much easier to do on split-second reaction because it's only one motion (8) rather than 3 (623). That said: - Kagura has no "bait counter" option. If Ragna reads an an attempt to bait his DP by blocking, backdash, etc. he can just 5B and get pressure or straight-up punish it. Against Kagura all you need to do is back up a tiny bit and block and he can't do anything to reverse the situation because his dash is so slow and his normals are so short. In most cases the worst-case scenario for Kagura reading your bait is that you don't get to straight-up punish him.. this is the most asinine (not to mention wrong) reason yet. ID is the weakest it's ever been this game and even if it were the best DP in the game? What does that mean? Something will always be the 'best' but is that really a problem when the 'best' in the game is nothing more than a solid DP?
Dark Ranger88 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Well it doesn't. kokonoes ball CAN be beat by throwing koko or... maybe a distortion drive? I gotta test that Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk Lol I don't even have Kokonoe. I can't really test anything except in real matches. Izayoi can probably back throw her out of the corner, but Makoto...
D.R.F. Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Next time someone says something ignorant, can we not waste several pages debating it? Please and thank you. Yea we coulda talking about how to get out of litchi or koko mixups.... oh god Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Nakkiel Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Yea we coulda talking about how to get out of litchi What setup?
D.R.F. Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Lol I don't even have Kokonoe. I can't really test anything except in real matches. Izayoi can probably back throw her out of the corner, but Makoto... I do know though you can run up grab kokonoe once the balls hitbox leaves, if they get grabbed the animation is long enough to where the balls active frames are gone Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Eshi Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 - Kagura has no "bait counter" option. If Ragna reads an an attempt to bait his DP by blocking, backdash, etc. he can just 5B and get pressure or straight-up punish it. Against Kagura all you need to do is back up a tiny bit and block and he can't do anything to reverse the situation because his dash is so slow and his normals are so short. In most cases the worst-case scenario for Kagura reading your bait is that you don't get to straight-up punish him.because people can't block or make Ragna's DP whiff? the hit box isn't that huge. - Kagura's DP is a charger. This means it not only loses to every other invul move that will clash with it (i.e. Ragna's DP) since you can't do it repeatedly, but you also can't do it after the opponent forces you to block an overhead since you lose your charge.There's no such thing as losing on clash, it's a CLASH. if you're scared of clashing then OS into barrier and it's impossible to punish. You don't do it after blocking an overhead, you do it on reaction to an overhead instead of blocking (like Hakumen's old 6D). - For the same reason, you can't do it quickly if the opponent does an otherwise DPable string that you block while not already crouching. I.e. you block Hazama's chain while dashing in and he D pulls in = you can't DP it.Well that's one situational trade-off for having the fastest (8 frame) meterless DP that can be hitconfirmed without meter on CH and is safe on air block. Overall it's still better.Next time someone says something ignorant, can we not waste several pages debating it? Please and thank you.hurk, sorry, I fell for the mix-up...
D.R.F. Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 What setup? Idk lol. I just hate getting mixed up by her. Not enough matchup experience Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
floatwater Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Also I find it amazing that all of you forgot about MU-12's DP.
Justice7541 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 because people can't block or make Ragna's DP whiff? the hit box isn't that huge. There's no such thing as losing on clash, it's a CLASH. if you're scared of clashing then OS into barrier and it's impossible to punish. You don't do it after blocking an overhead, you do it on reaction to an overhead instead of blocking (like Hakumen's old 6D). Well that's one situational trade-off for having the fastest (8 frame) meterless DP that can be hitconfirmed without meter on CH and is safe on air block. Overall it's still better.hurk, sorry, I fell for the mix-up... If you attempt to bait Ragna's DP by blocking, say on a wakeup, and he wakes up and doesn't DP but does 5B instead, now you're in pressure. That applies to everything except a safejump. By comparison as long as you're far enough from Kagura that he can't 5B you (which isn't very far) there's nothing he can do in response to you blocking on wakeup except wait for you to do something that he can DP. I should also mention that Kagura's DP doesn't give oki on non-CH so it won't do much against jabs and the like other than a (admittedly decent) chunk of damage and get you off him. Same goes for Mu's although Mu at least has reasons to want to get you away from her. The topic seems to be going in circles now anyway though so I'm willing to drop it if anyone has anything better to talk about. Like Jin being in Chaos Heroes instead of Noel or Hakumen or any other character who isn't a super generic pretty-boy-with-sword stereotype.
darkasjinksu§ Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 The topic seems to be going in circles now anyway though so I'm willing to drop it if anyone has anything better to talk about. Like Jin being in Chaos Heroes instead of Noel or Hakumen or any other character who isn't a super generic pretty-boy-with-sword stereotype. That's completely irrelevant to "CP News & Gameplay Discussion".
floatwater Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 If you attempt to bait Ragna's DP by blocking, say on a wakeup, and he wakes up and doesn't DP but does 5B instead, now you're in pressure. That applies to everything except a safejump. By comparison as long as you're far enough from Kagura that he can't 5B you (which isn't very far) there's nothing he can do in response to you blocking on wakeup except wait for you to do something that he can DP. either you got hard read or he just presses buttons, step up your game. Also IB and DP back, there is gaps in Ragna's pressure and if you don't have a DP poke out.
D.R.F. Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Sooo how about cp balancing?:0 Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Eshi Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Sooo how about cp balancing?:0 Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using TapatalkAnd on that bombshell: I honestly am not sure if I should even expect buffs for Amane. His biggest problem to me is difficult in hit confirmation, how it often requires him to commit to using normals that have huge recovery. I guess decrease the recovery on 2C/6C? But no matter what it's gonna be death on whiff. I like his design of only having one overhead (jA) so I wouldn't change j2B/jB in that way. It would be nice if jB's hurtbox got a buff. I just don't want him to get nerfed, I'll be 100% okay if he gets no changes. He doesn't have any unwinnable match-ups except for Kokonoe who is obviously getting nerfed.
D.R.F. Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Hit confirming was kinda hell for simply because his game in general. So much abare:/ also why do you like one overhead??? And j.a of all of them?? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
Mike Z Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 - If you walk forward and input 236, you now get 623 move out. - If you walf forward and input 41236 you get 236 move. YAY that thing I did got noticed by Arcsys-sempai!
STenSatsu Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 And on that bombshell: I honestly am not sure if I should even expect buffs for Amane. His biggest problem to me is difficult in hit confirmation, how it often requires him to commit to using normals that have huge recovery. I guess decrease the recovery on 2C/6C? But no matter what it's gonna be death on whiff. I like his design of only having one overhead (jA) so I wouldn't change j2B/jB in that way. It would be nice if jB's hurtbox got a buff. I just don't want him to get nerfed, I'll be 100% okay if he gets no changes. He doesn't have any unwinnable match-ups except for Kokonoe who is obviously getting nerfed. I'd like to see 5c and 6c be faster overall. Would make them slightly less risky but also would make hit confirming off AA 5c so much easier. Other than that, probably just have his supers not overheat his drill gauge and I'd be pretty happy. Would be nice to have a better 2a to mash out of pressure with but meh. Hit confirming was kinda hell for simply because his game in general. So much abare:/ also why do you like one overhead??? And j.a of all of them?? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk He doesn't really need many overheads since it isn't how his pressure game works.
D.R.F. Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Hmm, yea most amanes bounce in and out applying drills and zettou jump ins Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
TagerTime Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 How are you supposed to beat this move. Even if I know it's coming the ball still comes down on me while I'm comboing Koko. That ish should go away when she gets hit. This is how Tager can do it. http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=imph1u&s=5#.Uo2LAT-p6aK
Maho Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Azrael can punish Super ball like that : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JmT2BFp6jA Hakumen here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dB2npyMtLA#t=31s Didn't make videos but I know strong punishes for Terumi and Kokonoe herself, also the Tager that as been posted above, I don't know if everyone can do it as well as those, but I guess throw might be universal.
NecroTheReaper Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Relius can do it without throws via ley lol. Block or ley super>3C>214C>ley falling super ball>pick up combo.
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