mAc Chaos Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 You're making the mistake of just looking at how much damage a particular move does rather than the entire combo. If Hakumen has a 4 hit combo and it does 4k, what difference does it make if half of it is in the first two moves? Overall it ends up costing the same amount of stars as his combos always have. Actually, more stars and less damage on average. He just has explosive damage off punishes and OD, but as far as move to damage ratios go, it scales down rapidly. Or to put it another way, most of the damage is done up front. The rest is dragging out the combo to get some meter back.
Moblin Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Agreeing with Mac, the only reason Hakumen's damage is ridiculous right now is his OD combos. Without it, I usually count myself lucky to get about 5k with an 6-8 star combo and a good starter. Using the optimal combo routes of course. I have had complaints about Tsubaki > Hotaru overhead though. That's 3.2k that is dealt in a split second, unable to be bursted.
Lucalibur Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 I miss old hotaru, but what is the main difference between this 2b and old 2b? New 2B has more active AND recovery frames. It's actually negative on block now and no longer combos into 3C on CH.
Luminos564 Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 I find it rather funny how whenever we get news of a patch, the inevitable discussions include buffing Tager and somehow altering/nerfing Haku-men. Not that I disagree about the latter mind you. Ever since Extend, I find that I am simply not having fun with him as I used to back in CT-CS1. And as much as I love Unit Cookie Dough and the sweet 9K that comes with it, the Haku-men I fell in love with now looks just clunky and weird to me. So...I guess I am in need of a new main then. I hear Bullet's sounding pretty good right now.
Putin Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Getting 2-3k with a couple of hits is kind of an issue though. If you're at red health against Haku and just got your burst back, it's more than likely that you won't get a chance to use it because of this which is stupid. It's like fighting Tager or something, but instead of throws it's actual hits. Also lol at making Agito more plus on block, it's already ridiculous and lacks SMP which is equally stupid.
mAc Chaos Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 It's like fighting Tager or something, but instead of throws it's actual hits. That's the point. :3
Errol Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 that's just one of the factors that makes hakumen good. Not like say, Hazama, or Nu, don't have that going for them too.
TagerTime Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 I find it rather funny how whenever we get news of a patch, the inevitable discussions include buffing Tager and somehow altering/nerfing Haku-men. You see the only thing that is absolutely certain that will happen in this new patch that hasn't been officially stated already is that Tager will be deservedly buffed again just like always.
SoWL Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 It's like fighting Tager or something, but instead of throws it's actual hits. Sounds fair to me. I mean, Tager wasn't really broken last time I checked, and command throws have quite a lot of advantages over Haku's specials (can't be blocked, don't cost meter, can't be burst out of).
Ctrlaltwtf Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 You're making the mistake of just looking at how much damage a particular move does rather than the entire combo. If Hakumen has a 4 hit combo and it does 4k, what difference does it make if half of it is in the first two moves?. Damage comes out much faster. First hit does so much damage it can instantly kill someone at low HP. Shorter combos means less time for Burst meter to recharge. Tager's throw does 5k in one hit for 50 meter, which frequently means his "combo" will instantly kill you without letting you Burst. Compared to other characters that can use 50 meter to do more damage, that's still a huge advantage over them. Not entirely contradicting you, but things to consider.
Sophisticat Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Hakumen needs LESS damage and MORE options. That is all. This. Haku having big burst dmg is a character design, and that's fine. Counters are fine. OD, however, isn't and should def. be nerfed. Biggest prob with this iteration is he traded having options for more dmg. Result is it's harder to land hits, but when you do, it's almost OHKO. Bad design, imo. Terrible return/risk to contend with in normal times, it's just OD is so strong it makes up for this deficiency. Also, Mugen -> 6c FC -> full Shippu = 8k. 2hits. Best combo ever.
Airk Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) This. Haku having big burst dmg is a character design, and that's fine. Counters are fine. OD, however, isn't and should def. be nerfed. What kind of 'options' do people think he realy needs? I mean, he got the stupidest new move in the game this time out in the form of Agito, and it costs ONE bleeping star and basically lets him jump in for free, since it completely screws normal anti-airs due to it's mysterious Head/Body/Foot/Projectile/WTF status and his ground approach is fine, especially since he can play super patient 95% of the time. I don't see how he's doing the 'same damage for more stars' than extend, either, since you sure didn't see 6k off 3C CH in Extend. Really? 6K off an 8 frame low? =( Yeah, that's the most egregeious example, but if all these combos are costing him so many stars, why are they listed as 'stars gained' in the combo thread? :P I dunno. His overall damage seems to still be very high even discounting his insane overdrive stuff. And it's not like he has some sort of huge disadvantage to offset the fact that he does tons of damage. Maybe if his rate of star gain wasn't so insane that he ends combos with more than he started with he'd be a "burst damage" character, because he wouldn't be able to do that same damage again immediately if he hits you again, but as is, his star gain rate is way too high for him to be a "Burst damage" character. He doesn't even need to DO anything to get stars other than not flagrantly waste them in neutral, which is hardly a problem. Edited February 1, 2014 by Airk
NecroTheReaper Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Out of all the top end characters, Haku pisses me off the least. I'd rather him stay as is than go to Ex status. I don't think you remember him getting IOH's that lead to 6-8k damage in Ex as well as being permanently immune to most air pressure.
Kyosuke Kagami Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 I agree with HakumanZ not being as annoying as he used to be in Extend. Nerf his Overdrive, though. Shit, it's stupid to see that one hit during OD ends up with a 7k combo that's completely bananas to do :| And he GETS TO KEEP SOME MAGATAMA IF YOU SURVIVED THAT SHIT.
NecroTheReaper Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 Nah, I feel its fine since his OD is mostly used to finish a round, so if a Haku managed to beat you the first round without losing a burst, its partially you're fault for not playing well enough (not meanin disrespect, this goes for me as well). If you make him use his burst first round for defensive, he's got no skyrocketing damage round 2 (no time factor). If he uses OD round 1 to kill ya, he's gotta wait round 2 to do it again. I think 3k damage per combo 1 round and 8-10k the next is better than 6-8k at all times. But this is my personal view, I dont expect everyone to agree lol
Sophisticat Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 What kind of 'options' do people think he really needs? Chill, yo. I'll explain. Before I go into it, I want to say all this pertains to his design, and not his placement in tiers. Now, here are his notable nerfs: - 2b, 4b, and 6b are -4 on block. - 3c is -12 on block. - Jab general (across all charas) nerf. - Tick throw general nerf. - Throw now staggers. - Counter nerf, no more 6D. - Hotaru no longer as good, whiffs easily. General idea here is that his close game got nerfed. Now, if you look at his buffs and we generalize a bit, he mostly got dmg and proration buffs across the board, and increased meter gain. Yay. Doing 1+1= close game is nerfed, mid-long-range got buffed. It's harder/riskier to land hits because his close game is unsafe, so your pool of available moves in a given situation is more narrow than it used to be in EX. I hope you see he's now a less flexible character than he used to be? Now, dmg is definitely higher. I don't know who said it's equal to EX, but he should be slapped. Without OD, his dmg would be balanced (in theory) by him being a less flexible character than in EX, with less answers to every situation like before. He's more "one chance man" now in that he only need a couple hits to end the round. The idea I want to go for here is not that he can still win rounds with his insane dmg, but that he's overall a worse character (by design, not tier placement) by being more reliant on one factor (pure dmg) to win him games, as opposed to doing mixups, etc. His character design now revolves around OD. It's just so strong that it wins him games on its own. I don't think it's what any of us Haku players had in mind for him, or what we want him to be. As I mentioned earlier, not only is this bad design, but it's also a pretty bad R/R tradeoff. But I've written enough here, so I'll stop.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 I think he has a good amount of options. He has moves that allow him to overcome his lack of ground movement, he has moves that allow him to change his momentum mid-air and because he gains meter so fast he has access to ca, ct, and rc pretty often. The only thing I really think they should give hakumen, if anything is just return hotaru back to the way it was in ex. The float on it causes it to lose a lot a usability that I don't think it really needed to. Also make zantetsu prorate pretty hard if it isn't the first hit. Chill, yo. I'll explain. Before I go into it, I want to say all this pertains to his design, and not his placement in tiers. Now, here are his notable nerfs: - 2b, 4b, and 6b are -4 on block. - 3c is -12 on block. - Jab general (across all charas) nerf. - Tick throw general nerf. - Throw now staggers. - Counter nerf, no more 6D. - Hotaru no longer as good, whiffs easily. That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations. General idea here is that his close game got nerfed. Now, if you look at his buffs and we generalize a bit, he mostly got dmg and proration buffs across the board, and increased meter gain. Yay. Doing 1+1= close game is nerfed, mid-long-range got buffed. It's harder/riskier to land hits because his close game is unsafe, so your pool of available moves in a given situation is more narrow than it used to be in EX. I hope you see he's now a less flexible character than he used to be? Now, dmg is definitely higher. I don't know who said it's equal to EX, but he should be slapped. Without OD, his dmg would be balanced (in theory) by him being a less flexible character than in EX, with less answers to every situation like before. He's more "one chance man" now in that he only need a couple hits to end the round. The idea I want to go for here is not that he can still win rounds with his insane dmg, but that he's overall a worse character (by design, not tier placement) by being more reliant on one factor (pure dmg) to win him games, as opposed to doing mixups, etc. His character design now revolves around OD. It's just so strong that it wins him games on its own. I don't think it's what any of us Haku players had in mind for him, or what we want him to be. As I mentioned earlier, not only is this bad design, but it's also a pretty bad R/R tradeoff. But I've written enough here, so I'll stop. That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations. To put what Sophis posted here into perspective. In older BB iterations, when I need to make a comeback or simply playing a match I like to observe my opponent's pressure tendencies and neutral game habits to exploit, maybe break their momentum with a well placed counter because I observed they enjoy going for overheads after making me block 2b. Or I'll make sure that next time I do a jc low to the ground I'll have 3 stars because I noticed they try to AA me everytime I do jc, so I'll space it so that it'll cause a CH on them and I'll have enough meter to do jc>(land)>214A>623AA. Now I don't even think along those lines, now it's just "Do I have OD yet?", "Looks like I'll have to wait for OD to fully recover before I go on the offense again", "what can I exploit on my opponent so that I can OD them", "Has OD recharged yet?". Literally the only thing I can rely on is OD in a match, and his worst matchups are characters he can't get in on to OD them (Relius, Valkenhayn, and Kokonoe and I'm aware of how strong each of them are). I can't rely apply pressure, and I can't really break out of it because Hakumen's counters suck so bad some cast members can get in on him so easily for free and his reversals suck so much they don't even help. he;s so one dimensional that if he can';t get you with OD he's most liekly fucked because he doesn't have much else going for him in terms of character designs. Also, no one mentioned this but make Yukikaze have static damage of 3.8k again. It does 1.8k or so against superarmor moves now, every other version of BB Yukikaze did the same static damage of 3.8k even if it countered superarmor moves. For me that was the breaking point when I decided to stop playing the game, and just play Terumi (who isn't so one dimensional) whenever I touch the game.
TekkamanArk Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations. That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations.That's not really a nerf though, if anything that's a buff. If you're clever enough you can break their staggered state for a free combo or knock down without the cost of any meter. I actually liked that change, and I hope they keep it at least for a while in upcoming iterations. Robo-Ky?
Dark Ranger88 Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 You might want to edit that post. It's like a broken record.
HoudiniJr100 Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 i think we're witnessing a breakdown ....shall I get the music kristoph? (your avi made it all more ironic)
TekkamanArk Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 ....shall I get the music kristoph? (your avi made it all more ironic) The musician was Klavier, no?
BladeOfJustice7 Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 i think we're witnessing a breakdown I've already been broken (Kenshiro voice).
BlackYakuzu94 Posted February 2, 2014 Posted February 2, 2014 Blade, the man with eternal sorrow in his eyes.
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