Errol Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 you would have to give more clear examples for me to understand what you are complaining about. for example. what would a typical round look like. you land a 5b starter and carry someone to the corner. how many more times do you have to mixup to kill. Using optimal combos.
Assassinine Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 It largely depends on the starter. In corner: j.2D overhead is around 2600 meterless. 2B low is around 2900 meterless. Throw is around 3500 meterless. 214D command throw is 1500 meterless. 63214B can be used to get ~600 extra damage on a combo for 50 meter, kind of lackluster, but keeps the corner. Most of his other potential super enders allow the opponent to roll past you while you are recovering. For example, using 632146D to dump 100 meter into a j.2D combo will boost it up to 4400 damage, but the opponent can simply roll past you while you are recovering, putting yourself in the corner. The only other super you can use in the corner that doesnt leave you in a disadvantageous position is OD Soutenjin. OD combos basically require an N starter, which means j.2D and throw are pretty much out of the question for this (j.2D is workable if you commit to cOD as soon as it connects i guess). The damage isnt extremely bad, but actually landing a hit is frustrating due inability to TRM, short range lows and the overhead only chaining from 5C or 2C, which due to pushback makes it very difficult to use a low afterward. Terumi's Crush Trigger is a laughably bad -7 on block. Its rather easy to just autopilot defense against Terumi with 1ABC OS, auto-blocking low until you see 5C/2C, then blocking high. Tbh i think if 236D, 632146D, and OD 63214B pushed him just a bit further from the corner on hit, such that a rolling opponent wouldnt pass him while hes still recovering, he would be a bit better off. He could actually do combo routes that maximize meter gain without losing the corner, and use that meter to make his mixup workable or maximize reward from landing hits without giving up the corner.
Loli Bacon Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 It largely depends on the starter. In corner: j.2D overhead is around 2600 meterless. 2B low is around 2900 meterless. Throw is around 3500 meterless. 214D command throw is 1500 meterless. 63214B can be used to get ~600 extra damage on a combo for 50 meter, kind of lackluster, but keeps the corner. Most of his other potential super enders allow the opponent to roll past you while you are recovering. For example, using 632146D to dump 100 meter into a j.2D combo will boost it up to 4400 damage, but the opponent can simply roll past you while you are recovering, putting yourself in the corner. The only other super you can use in the corner that doesnt leave you in a disadvantageous position is OD Soutenjin. OD combos basically require an N starter, which means j.2D and throw are pretty much out of the question for this (j.2D is workable if you commit to cOD as soon as it connects i guess). The damage isnt extremely bad, but actually landing a hit is frustrating due inability to TRM, short range lows and the overhead only chaining from 5C or 2C, which due to pushback makes it very difficult to use a low afterward. Terumi's Crush Trigger is a laughably bad -7 on block. Its rather easy to just autopilot defense against Terumi with 1ABC OS, auto-blocking low until you see 5C/2C, then blocking high. Tbh i think if 236D, 632146D, and OD 63214B pushed him just a bit further from the corner on hit, such that a rolling opponent wouldnt pass him while hes still recovering, he would be a bit better off. He could actually do combo routes that maximize meter gain without losing the corner, and use that meter to make his mixup workable or maximize reward from landing hits without giving up the corner. He sounds perfectly balanced. Instead of willingly using meter to give yourself a disadvantage (lolol) why not use meter for stronger mixups? Do shit like 5C(1) > RC > j.B. Jesus! Meter isn't just about tacking on damage.
Stellarcircle5 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) That's one thing I never understood about Terumi. People complain about his mixup being ass (which it is) yet I never hear about Terumi doing crazy RC shenanigans. I'm no expert on the character, but surely his surplus of meter should give him more freedom to pull all sorts of BS with rapid cancels. If the mixup fails, he could still continue his strong pressure and gain it back in no time right? Loads of characters make it work (I'm looking at you, Jin) so why not Terumi? Edited January 31, 2014 by Stellarcircle5
bakahyl Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) That's one thing I never understood about Terumi. People complain about his mixup being ass (which it is) yet I never hear about Terumi doing crazy RC shenanigans. I'm no expert on the character, but surely his surplus of meter should give him more freedom to pull all sorts of BS with rapid cancels. If the mixup fails, he could still continue his strong pressure and gain it back in no time right? Loads of characters make it work (I'm looking at you, Jin) so why not Terumi? He still needs to land his combo's to get meter, something which he is not going to get in the case of someone who is better than him in neutral or can outzone him. Plus he is also not getting the meter if they know how to block his bad mixups Edited January 31, 2014 by bakahyl
Loli Bacon Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 He still needs to land his combo's to get meter, something which he is not going to get in the case of someone who is better than him in neutral or can outzone him> Plus he is also not getting the meter if they know how to block his bad mixups Lots of characters have this problem. Any pressure string still gives him good pressure, and it's not like j.2D isn't a threat when it will build him meter. I don't care if it's akin to landing a 2A as a starter, that's good shit consider you'll probably get 50-60 meter from the confirm. Terumi's mixup is bad, yes, but his pressure is strong; get your opponent to fidget, land dem hits, and laugh. Can he Kara his throw? I'm thinking maybe 6B or 6C to kara will help.
Zeromus_X Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) I don't care if it's akin to landing a 2A as a starter, that's good shit consider you'll probably get 50-60 meter from the confirm. I think it's a misconception that Terumi can just gain a whole bunch of meter off any stray hit confirm. With 2A for example, you can combo from 5D into 6D for nice meter gain and a midscreen safejump...but you pretty much have to be grinding against the opponent's sprite for it to connect. More realistically, you'll either have to A. combo into 236D and then use 50 meter for Burensen to get oki/corner carry or B. end in 5D > 6C for oki and forfeit about 20 meter gain. Certainly, in the corner, he gains a ton of heat and it can be somewhat scary when he gets the 6D vortex started, but off random midscreen hits he really doesn't gain a whole lot or set up a scary situation, which is why it's so easy to disrespect his pressure. If they gave his 236D better positioning, or maybe made his 2D faster with more active frames for oki, it would go a long way to making him a more solid character. Edited January 31, 2014 by Zeromus_X
Justice7541 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 you would have to give more clear examples for me to understand what you are complaining about. for example. what would a typical round look like. you land a 5b starter and carry someone to the corner. how many more times do you have to mixup to kill. Using optimal combos. It depends on how much meter Terumi has because outside of corner he needs Messenga (the dash super) to extend a combo past 1.5k and then it depends on whether you're willing to trade oki for damage. If you get 5B starter with 50% meter he can get about 4k midscreen, if he has meter to spare and ends with Fuuenjin or something it'll go up to about 5k. In corner he hits 4-5k pretty consistently since he doesn't need Messenga to get the combo started. The problem as was already stated is that if he wants oki 236D is a bad ender, and that move prorates heavily (so it's not that good mid-combo). If you're in the corner that's not a problem since you'll be getting tons of meter anyway and there are better oki enders (ending with 236D is only worth about 15 meter anyway due to proration) but midscreen you kind of need that 236D ender for meter build since you don't have many meter-build options otherwise and you're expending much more meter. Regardless I think people are overexaggerating how bad 236D is, it's not THAT big of a deal that it gives bad oki. He's got plenty of other better oki enders, including 236D > Orochi which gives really good oki and decent damage.
Lucalibur Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 IMO the main issue with Terumi is that he suffers from 'gimmicky balancing' syndrome. In this case, he is a character that requires meter to do shit, which means his meterless stuff sucks for the most part. He gains meter easily though! Problem is that his meter gaining options are not always available. 5D>6D is practically a corner juggle only thing, 236D is ass without Orochi ender, 6D itself is practically corner only...He simply doesn't gain meter unless he manages to outplay his enemy at first, which is a problem since as mentioned before, his meterless options are ass. This wouldn't be such an issue if his options that do use meter weren't kind of ass 50% of the time. Sure, RCing is always good, but a lot of his crap just plain sucks and ain't worth burning meter with. His CT is laughable, his counter assault is 100% useless, his counter super is extremely unreliable, and DP super is only really good in OD unless you really want to get someone off you, which wouldn't be required if his counter assault didn't suck nearly as much as it does to begin with. What we're left with? Messenga is always 'ok' I guess. It's nice for slapping some mid-screen damage but in OD it's 100% outclassed by Soutenjin as a combo filler. I also don't think it covers enough range to be of any real use against zoners, at least from my experience. Fuuenjin and Renshouga(did I spell those 2 right?) are not exactly options you can use anytime you want either, and they both have you lose decent oki(the only exception being if the former is not being used at 100% meter) at the cost of the damage they can add in combos. Sadly, Renshouga can't be used in the corner which is a massive design flaw AND does less min damage than Fueejin at 100% meter,so it's really not that good either. Basically, for a character that depends on meter so much, a lot of his meter gaining options just ain't that consistent, and a lot of his meter requiring options range from 'kind of' to 'really' ass, bar a few exceptions.
Airk Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Why? I spent 50 meter on it. Work around it. I'm still punishable. Oh yeah, because it's totally fair for one character to have a 50 meter reversal super that people need to spend tons of lab time practicing special magic punishes when EVERY OTHER 50 meter reversal super in the game is like -30 and can be punished however you want. Nah. If they just leave the top tiers alone (except of course Koko) and bring up the bottom tier like they've shown publically, I don't think there will be too much issue. Yeah, and when have they EVER done that? They could have had amazing balance in Extend by this method, but instead they kept up the whole "throw spaghetti at the wall and randomly change around/nerf the low tier characters." nonsense that they do every single time.
NecroTheReaper Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 You're right, they havnt done it, but so far they've only spoken about touching Koko from the high tiers, and every other character is a low tier character that needed some improvements. They seem like they're makin Kagura's pressure a bit closer to Noel's (their drives are similar imo, just Kaguras was like, 2000% reward and works 1% of the time). Giving bullet better options during blockstrings and a tager worthy command grab at 50 heat, supposedly the movement Izayoi people are hyped about, Terumi getting more space control. Its all low tiers (admittedly NEW low tiers)
Kriegdrache Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I just want Bang to be re-added to the game, give me back jump cancellable 2B/6A, remove pushback on 623B, make FRKZ non-OD again. I just want mah ninjja back Arcsys You forgot the most important buff. Bring back beat a nail with your hammer ;_;
Lucalibur Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 You forgot the most important buff. Bring back beat a nail with your hammer ;_; This is actually the reason why I dropped Bang in CP. He just ain't Bang without a round permanent FRKZ and Beat a Nail with your Hammer playing on the background.
Tsukahara Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 That's one thing I never understood about Terumi. People complain about his mixup being ass (which it is) yet I never hear about Terumi doing crazy RC shenanigans. I'm no expert on the character, but surely his surplus of meter should give him more freedom to pull all sorts of BS with rapid cancels. If the mixup fails, he could still continue his strong pressure and gain it back in no time right? Loads of characters make it work (I'm looking at you, Jin) so why not Terumi? WHY TERUMI IS MEDIOCRE AT BEST 101: Everyone says "Just RC and do mixups" but that almost isn't an option with Terumi. There is just to much startup and too much REALLY obvious animation. If you know how Terumi works, he can't mix you up, even with RC's. His 5c(1) > RC > High/Low being his only valid one in my opinion. If the opponent is crouch blocking, what are you going to RC too? A Really obvious dash up throw that requires you to be inside their character sprite? A really mediocre command grab that will give you ALMOST NOTHING if you RC into it, as RC'ing reduces meter gain briefly. So go high? As in, do a REALLY obvious reactable jump into 2d? If you hold crouching block, Terumi can open you up 3 ways. Throw, Command Throw, or overhead. So let's have a closer look at these. Command Throw - 25 frames startup.... How to beat it? DO ANYTHING on reaction. Push a button, Terumi loses. Backdash, Terumi Loses. Jump, Terumi Loses. Regular Throw - Needs to be POINT BLANK in your face How to beat it? You know Terumi can't open you up otherwise, so watch for it, and tech it, or poke out when you see him trying to dash into his terrible throw range. It's not hard to stop Terumi from throwing you. Jump 2d - It's a jump... stand up... Doesn't matter if he RC's into it, jump cancels 2c, or 5c... He is in the air, if you want to block it, just stand up. Heck if it's done out of 2c as low and fast as possible, some characters can mash 5a and just stop him. "So why don't you frame trap then? Terumi has amazing normals that are + on block, and 8k punishes" - a tonne of people have said something to this affect at some point. Except he doesn't. Go check out his frame data. Frame advantages on block 5b = +2 6b = +4 (has 28 frame startup to jump out/backdash, although this can be feigned into throws, it still loses to mid's) 5a = 0 2a = +1 5c= -3 2d= +5 (40 frame startup, I honestly think this move is ALMOST unusable against anyone that knows how to fight Terumi) EVERYTHING ELSE = roughly -10 or more If your opponent can instant block well, even 5b and 2a become negative. If they barrier block instead, then you get maybe 2-3 normals before you get pushed out of your stubby range and need to leave a punishable gap somewhere to get back in. Terumi has AMAZING damage potential (although he needs 50 meter to do it midscreen) but if you can see through his smoke and mirrors pressure, he has huge punishable weaknesses as a character.
Assassinine Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 ^ What was said above sums up pretty much everything i could say about his supposedly "strong pressure" He sounds perfectly balanced. Instead of willingly using meter to give yourself a disadvantage (lolol) why not use meter for stronger mixups? Do shit like 5C(1) > RC > j.B. Jesus! Meter isn't just about tacking on damage. This is sound logic until you consider the context of Terumi's character design. Do you think that a character designed with twice as many supers than specials is just fine being incapable of using said supers without throwing the rest of his gameplan under the bus? I dont think its too much to ask to get bare basic 2A oki after a super ender. Noel can do double fenrir and get better damage AND oki than Terumi's Fuuenjin, which is supposed to be the holy grail of super enders. I do in fact spend most of my meter on RCs, simply because his massive arsenal of supers is terrible. Messenga is only useful for N starters midscreen or hard reads against zoners. Burensen gives barely any damage and gives weaker oki than simply ending with 6D jump vortex, OD Burensen allows the opponent to roll past him before he recovers. Renshoga is borderline useless, with Messenga being infinitely more efficient for anything but a midscreen forward throw combo. Fuuenjin leaves you with 0 meter against an opponent who can freely roll past and corner you. Zanrouga is a very schizophrenic super counter, often guard pointing moves its strong against without triggering the counter, to say nothing of the moves it legitimately loses to. Soutenjin is only useful for combos in overdrive, but otherwise is a decent defensive tool. Fixing the negative oki issues with 236D, OD 63214B, and 632146D would vicariously improve some of his problem areas, by allowing him to reap the full benefit of his drive, and using that extra meter to cover the gaps in his gameplan or for pumping up his damage. Being able to get that extra 20 meter per combo with 236D without losing corner would make the necessity to RC to maintain pressure and perform mixup much more bearable, and would make this soon to be 50/50 superflash mixup somewhat less of a gimmick as he would be getting more meter to fuel his thirst.
Justice7541 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Terumi's frametraps are great lol, he can punish a mash for like 6k. That alone is enough to keep people guessing. You'd be surprised how difficult it is to not mash against a character who can hit you for half your health off a mixup, even if it's a bad mixup. With a 5b that is as + on block as some people's slow reset normals (i.e. Bang 6A) and the potential to blow you up with sufficient resources (even j.2D leads to like 4k if he has 100-mter Fuuenjin) there's a lot of mindgames going on. The reason i brought Terumi up in the first place though was to point out that it's not that easy to just cobble together a balanced character from scratch. I think a lot of people have pointed out flaws in Terumi's game that wouldn't even be an issue if some of his stuff was just very slightly better. Like: - If 236D was 2-3 more frames of untechable time, he'd have super strong oki off pretty much everything. - If 2C was like 1f faster, 5C had better forward movement, 3C was jump-cancelab,e etc. or any of a million small tweaks to any of his normals, his meterless pressure would be a ton stronger which would negate his primary weaknesses of "needs meter to get meter". I'm sure that with Kokonoe, etc. they weren't thinking that having one unblockable super would lead to such a clusterfuck either, the obvious issues with that move notwithstanding (literally days of invul and active frames, full unblockable, vacuums, etc.). And even if you loketested her for weeks that's not going to come out right away.
Tsukahara Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I agree he can have huge punishes on people mashing the wrong button, but if you try to slip 6b or something into a block string against a calm patient player that knows the match and is just looking for it, Terumi is getting hit. Yeah, he needs some minor tweaks and hopefully a few buff's that will help him. Unfortunately yes, it is very difficult to gauge how a new character will balance out when they are built from scratch, and Terumi and Koko are both good examples of that difficulty.
mAc Chaos Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Same things been happening with untested characters going all the way back to CT with Hakumen and Nu.
Kriegdrache Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 they should nerf hakus counters imo 6D is too strong, needs more startup imo.
CrisisEdge Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 they should nerf hakus counters imo It should cost 2 stars. I mean they are kind of like little supers so they shouldn't be free.
Airk Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Frame advantages on block 5b = +2 6b = +4 (has 28 frame startup to jump out/backdash, although this can be feigned into throws, it still loses to mid's) 5a = 0 2a = +1 5c= -3 2d= +5 (40 frame startup, I honestly think this move is ALMOST unusable against anyone that knows how to fight Terumi) EVERYTHING ELSE = roughly -10 or more If your opponent can instant block well, even 5b and 2a become negative. If they barrier block instead, then you get maybe 2-3 normals before you get pushed out of your stubby range and need to leave a punishable gap somewhere to get back in. Do we HAVE to play this game again? Look at other character's frame data. NO ONE has a bunch of moves that are still plus on IB that don't have tons of startup. This is how the game works. Terumi is no worse than anyone else - better, than most IMHO, 5B being +2 is huge - in this regard. Having to find some way to catch your opponent napping is pretty much how BB is supposed to be played, notwithstanding a few characters whose gimmicks allow them to play it differently. Does he maybe need some minor tweaks? Sure. Is he anywhere even close to first in line for tweaking? Nope. Has Arcsys ever done 'minor tweaks' to characters in a balance update? Certainly not for THIS game.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 It should cost 2 stars. I mean they are kind of like little supers so they shouldn't be free. Ok, i know Mac is talkin shit, but not sure if srs here.
Airk Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Ok, i know Mac is talkin shit, but not sure if srs here. I dunno, but it's actually kindof an interesting idea to: A) Return Hakumen's counters to Extend status. B) Have them cost 1 star to use C) Have them give TWO stars on hit (So the same net amount of stars as normal.)
BlackYakuzu94 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Eh, it seems too costly considering he's already pretty vulnerable if they don't catch anything.
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