Hollysmoke Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Guys, I want to let this thread rock, but if it devolves into "well, opinions aren't wrong" and other tangentials, infractions are going to be given out like lollipops at a doctor's office. Talk about CPE, discuss SKD's posts, talk about how to structure offence, whatever, but I don't want to wake up to 30 posts about what constitutes an opinion. That's...really not a healthy way to incite discussions. People will just stop talking, period. Regardless, anyone have any thoughts on SMP resets for offense? I'd love to hear people's thought on that.
C0R Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 That's...really not a healthy way to incite discussions. People will just stop talking, period. Regardless, anyone have any thoughts on SMP resets for offense? I'd love to hear people's thought on that. Sometimes silence is better than five simultaneous discussions held by seven different parties with ten different objectives based on a thousand different understandings. SMP mid-combo is really bad. Even in the case of an intentional reset, why put yourself in a situation where you could instead just get more untechable time? Sure they might be surprised that they get out. Then again you might get surprised that now your combo is punishable on hit.
TD Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 They have their place, but most characters just want the knockdown. It depends on the character usually and what options they have after the smp, or move properties. We've seen some pretty ridiculous smp things, like Hazama OD chains, haku OD stuff, terumi has some resets. Most cases though the foe can quickly tech, sometimes quicker than one can handle, which is even harder to control than rolls. They are gimmicky at worst, but some characters can legit use them in combos. The forementioned two, mu, and izayoi are some examples.
Ctrlaltwtf Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Regardless, anyone have any thoughts on SMP resets for offense? I'd love to hear people's thought on that. SMP mid-combo is really bad. Even in the case of an intentional reset, why put yourself in a situation where you could instead just get more untechable time? Sure they might be surprised that they get out. Then again you might get surprised that now your combo is punishable on hit. Tager has a godlike gimmick that uses SMP for an instantaneous throw reset (it can be a 720 too). It's a bit different story though because you apply SMP at the end of a combo then immediately apply Gadget Finger's untech time. So long as your character has a powerful use for punishing techs I don't see why not. Most BB characters don't though, because air tech goes so high in this game most character's AAs won't even reach. Honestly, this may be because I'm a Tager main, but I only really find uses for it with Tager due to the unblockable nature of his resets.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I dunno, this thread tends to be dead most of the time and is generally only active when its news or we're just shit-posting. Its the first we've actually been constructive in a while.
C0R Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I'm talking about mechanically, as a property, SMP doesn't actually DO anything for you. It does a lot for you opponent by giving them the ->option<- to tech earlier, but in the end if your opponent is unaware of the gigantic blue flash and huge text notifying of an SMP reset, they're going to have more than a few problems over the course of the match..
Hollysmoke Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I was just interested in SMP and had some questions about it is all.What about the stagger off Jin's 22C? I've seen some players SMP it but I never understood why (I usually go for the knockdown because it's safer).
TD Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 22c smp still knocks down or staggers the second time. It's basically just maximizing damage from a different ender in his case. The third trigger will probably be like most character's second smp trigger. Jin doesn't mind the stagger because it offers a different situation that could potentially confuse the opponent, even though it is riskier.
Poultrygeist Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I would just like to say that there is a very real difference between putting someone on a pedastal and treating the word of someone more experienced than yourself with respect and an open mind. It would be the former if SKD was someone who was known as a community celebrity but didn't consistently perform well, but he's not. It's not like he's Mike Ross or something :U (no disrespect to the man but it is what it is). And Dreiko IMO your example with LK and the Japanese player only supports that. Not even trying to kiss ass here, because I assume most of us are here either because we want to learn or we want to stop losing to dumb shit. EDIT: Let me clarify a bit. If I'm in training to be a mechanic, and someone who's been working on cars as a living for a long period of time gives me advice, it's not putting them on a pedastal to listen to them nor is it me being inferior as a person for being willing to accept that advice (inferior at the job for sure, but that's why I'm listening to begin with). Putting them on a pedastal would be to treat them like a god or assume everything they do or say about everything is instantly the optimal simply because of their expertise in one field. I'm only trying to say is that there's a difference between being eager to listen and grovelling at someone's feet.
LaowPing Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Originally, SMP might have been a way to prevent infinites, but now it's a reset mechanic. Every now and then it'll happen due to someone forgetting they used a move in a combo (guilty) but often when you see smp it's better not to tech. Unless you know the reset you have a high chance of getting hit by it. Also, been meaning to ask, how do you guys, how do you get better at reacting to things. Mix ups, grabs, jump ins, etc. Once apon a time i was good at blocking stuff on reaction but i can't seem to get back that. I wanted to try it in practice mode by setting the dummy to different blockstrings but someone here said that doesn't work. Sent from my ZTE-X500 using Tapatalk 2
SixWingedAngel Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Also, been meaning to ask, how do you guys, how do you get better at reacting to things. I drink a redbull Sometimes btw I wake up in the morning and I can react to everything, while sometimes I can't play for shiz, wierd stuff. As far as improving your reaction's go though, repetition helps so trainning mode surely helps. I just play the guys as many times as I can and I gradually get better at seeing things. As the article someone posted sais, the more used to situations you get, and the better you sort your thinking, the more room you will have for reacting around.
Myoro Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 In Relius' case doing anything with SMP is going to telegraph your reset thanks to the blue flash it incurs. So that said, I will only use SMP resets if they get knockdown upon their failure condition. There's ways to use 236C SMP and that will ether land you a reset or pressure no matter which way they decide to tech or guarantees knockdown if they don't tech. SMP236C is also used in vinum glitch #2, which is another thing that, if it works is a great reset and if it doesn't, will get knockdown. Most experienced players I fight will see that blue flash and just not tech, so against them I tend to forgo SMP resets completely and just go for damage and late tech punishes. (I need more late tech punishes come to think of it...)
Airk Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 SMP resets are basically there to punish people who are just holding tech and hoping you drop your combo. That's it. There can be weird high level mindgames around this, but generally, it's a mid-level-player trap. I too have those days where I'm just like "Look at me, I'm blocking Carl mixup, I know Kung-fu have superpowers!"; And usually for each of those days, I have three days where I can't block Relius 6A no matter how obvious it is. :P Someday, I would like to find out the difference between those days.
Poultrygeist Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Remember the good ol days of pre-CP BB where you had to mash to tech and all it took was one poorly timed tech attempt to eat a CH? "Fun" stuff.
skd Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) ah yes, my subjects, you have waited long enough. im just kidding, but that probably has worsened someone's opinion of me. okay, this thread pretty much set itself on fire for the past few pages so i might not catch everything. i'll speak generally. crossing fingers, dont infract me mac i'm at 2 warning points already. It's pretty fair to say I don't think i have much to talk about without trudging into the opinions discussion, so here i go. Firstly, i'd like to talk about the validity of counterpoints, such as SWD saying I dont know about a bumper setup, and someone chiming in that me not addressing this directly is an issue. Let me repost my words from the preamble i wrote. as a GOOD DUSTLOOP MEMBER, ill try to push a discussion here while we wait for 2.0, maybe educate some people, since apparently not many people have very accurate ideas on how offensive, high/low/throw mixup is implemented PRACTICALLY and end up with unrealistic expectations of their own reactions or something terrible because they only play bad players (practical application is important, because while people find the ideas easily agreeable, their application of those ideas onto BB's tools is very off). I don't care about netplay personal exp, low level "opinions" that dont have much reasonable basis or whatever, this is about efficient implementation in BLAZBLUE not the 2 delay game that resembles it. The reason why i say this is because, if you do not follow the right train of thought when it comes to offense, you may come to off base conclusions like those on the strength of bang "mixup" (let me use "mixup" encompassing many things). Whatever arbitrary ideas you have concerning what is "mixup", what counts as pressure, and what does not, i do not care for. I am trying to talk about practical application. I dont care, because ultimately it has no bearing on what i'm trying to talk about. And by bringing up these counterpoints, you only demonstrate to me that you totally missed the point. I am trying to impart the proper approach to analysis (which apparently, people say they understand and agree with, but if you did you would not be saying what you do, and i knew this was going to happen which is why i mentioned it in that preamble, not like it did anything). If you really did understand, or had that approach, you would not be coming to those conclusions. Hell, we'd even agree on things. How valid is someone's setup who doesn't even understand offensive meta? How valid is someone's opinion on the strength of mixup who cant integrate practical application of mixup? That, is, in a nutshell, why I don't feel the need to respond to things like that. Saying something like that was totally missing the point, and i hope you revisit my post with that in mind. I hoped that much would be obvious but nobody really spelled it out. I am not really talking to anyone specifically with this, but a ton of discussion has appeared to take place despite this. If you don't have the right basis for coming to your conclusions, you are NOT going to come to the right conclusions for the right reasons. This is important, because the way I attempted to break things down, it is more so building blocks than it is the right answers. To be honest, what i wrote was VERY basic, and the actual explanation of situations can go on and on and on. But, people didn't have quite the right idea on how mixup was structured, people didnt have the right idea on reactive ability, people didnt have the right idea, so i attempted to lay it out by showing an example analysis on specific tools and gave an example of how reactable offense is implemented. I could go on for days about actual analysis for situations. I am not trying to make claims on what tools are strong or what is not. I am trying to show you the right ideas to approach those tools with, so you can come to correct conclusions on your own. You can come from any line, any scene, and have a different outlook on what is what at low/intermediate level. Someone else may come in and assume that Jin pressure is totally the most broken thing in the game. Who's to say their opinion is more valid than yours? The game. The game tells you. You can literally end up with ANY skewed opinion while developing, but ultimately as far as optimized play goes there is much shared consensus. While, there might be small discrepancies (like the thing mentioned about carl being higher tier than kokonoe, its a reasonable claim) ultimately ideas on how to play most effectively, what is strong, what isnt, general human ability...these things are shared. They are not shared because "we need consensus", it is because the most effective ideas are not exclusive to anyone. And yes, while knowledge shapes your conclusions, just because we don't come to the same ones it doesn't mean that i am lacking in knowledge. Maybe it can go vice versa, maybe someone might have an overly optimistic opinion because they don't understand the game as well. If we can't see eye to eye here, you might as well just block me. Also,ill make this very brief, but dreiko, you are definitely not getting the right idea from the "don't pedestal players" thing jiyuna said. I definitely would like to be able to use my perception as a reputable thing. After all, isn't my perception a successful one? There is that angle, that isnt debatable. Nobody is sucking me off on some skill hierarchy anything or whatever. There isnt anything wrong about saying my ideas are more accurate or considerate. Of course, you can question them, but when you directly disagree with something that we both claim to have put consideration into, isnt the onus of question on you? I've proven my understanding already. There may be people who have put in a lot of effort and a lot of time, but that does not really mean anything. Time spent coming to poor conclusions ends up as nothing but a poor conclusion. I'm not saying everyone's efforts are useless, but as people have said many times (including you), the facts speak for themselves. As i said earlier, the game tells you whether you are making the right calls or not. There are easy ways to verify these things, no, wins are not nearly so vague that you need to consider multiple causes for a win or something. Overall, i could go on for days about this kind of thing, it isnt really so on topic for me to bring this up either, i suppose. and laow ping, yes, anyone can say anything about something in a specific scope and be right, but that is not what i am concerning myself about at all. Anyone replying to me should keep that in mind, because i'm only really here to talk about optimizing ideas. Two things First, you used literally wrong (another pet-peeve of mine). Second, best is still subjective. Rachel and Valk don't get much damage off of their overheads. If someone wants to say that kokonoe's overhead game is stronger because she gets more damage off of it, they can and they aren't wrong for it. They just value damage over options. If someone wants to say that Bang's high to low game is stronger due to the symbols he get's off of an overhead, opening up a very powerful super, they can, and they aren't wrong for it. You can't say someone's opinion is wrong. Well, technically you can, but it doesn't make them wrong. I've seen Valk's open up their opponent many times just to lose anyway due to the damage not being there. Same with Rachel, because, as you said, you have to look at the picture as a whole. However, talking about things like what is best...this is inarguable, to a point. These are not really subjective. No, it isnt as varied as "we can say this is good because i prioritize this!". That isn't how developed play works. Developed play has priorities. You have to adhere to those things. It's usually called risk/reward. Within that, perhaps you have a bit of wiggle room. I think izayoi's overall GA offense is fantastic, comparable to valk even? Yeah, i'd go that far. That might be a little hard for some people to swallow, but whats the issue? Is it unreasonable? If it is, that is one thing. If it's a lack of knowledge, that's another. Strong can be arguable. Best can be arguable, but no, you cannot dictate best like that. That isnt how fighting games work. Not sure if there was much else i wanted to say? ill go by user~ @SWD: I don't think you read my posts very clearly. If you still want to say i'm lacking in knowledge or wrong, i'd be glad to explain things for you more in depth, but i'd just be repeating myself. That would honestly be best off in a PM. @Sey: Sorry, i'm going to keep it really concise, but...Hazama options, I dont think hes really similar to jin, but his pressure is still good. His pressure is a lot looser. A lot of frame advantage, but not the same kind of threats. Can't really force you to hold very much mixup if you roll good defensive options / have good reactions, at least not as much as jin. As you mentioned with Mitsurugi, his style kind of ends up being quick pressure/threats. Not the hardest to disrespect because he can't really weigh his options the same way jin can, but still has generally threatening tools, so it ends up looking like that. @hollysmoke: Sorry! I also wrote that at 3 in the morning with my head spinning, lol. I intended to have it checked over and re-written before turning it into an article for sure, by no means do i think that is even close to publishable. Being able to dialogue about it and figure out what needs clarification gives me ideas on where to expand and better ways to organize, so testing the waters here first wasn't without purpose. Im very glad to get questions from people! I definitely do want to keep talking about things. and as for my opinion on SMP, it is literally there to limit combos. 100%. Can be used for cute resets, but those are ultimately pretty weak, especially because vs good opponents you want to assume that they know just as much as you, have a good idea about your characters options and the threat of an "SMP" making them tech earlier than expected. Edited April 10, 2015 by not_lunaris
Poultrygeist Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Do you have an ask.fm account or something like that? If you'd like to take questions that might be more reliable, then again this thread getting an increased volume in questions wouldn't exactly hurt its on-topicness any more than what it usually sees.
Anne Posted April 10, 2015 Author Posted April 10, 2015 I'm fine with questions and whatever being here. This is the kind of talk I would think people here most need to see anyways.
KayEff Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Do you have an ask.fm account or something like that? http://ask.fm/SUPERKAWAIIDESU (i completely forgot SKD had a maid suit, thanks for reminding me google)
Hollysmoke Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Do you have an ask.fm account or something like that? If you'd like to take questions that might be more reliable, then again this thread getting an increased volume in questions wouldn't exactly hurt its on-topicness any more than what it usually sees.An open discussion on gameplay? That doesn't belong here! Oh, you silly bugger you!I haven't been keeping up in awhile so...what exactly is defined as the current "offensive meta"? That just seems a little vague to me.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I'd like a general understanding of the current meta myself.
Anne Posted April 10, 2015 Author Posted April 10, 2015 I'm going to make the assumption SKD isn't specifically talking about "BB offensive meta", he's just talking about the general idea of selecting offensive options vs the defensive options your opponent is choosing across fighting games.
C0R Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Meta itself is a word that's acquired a very vague definition over the years. In a basic sense it's synonymous with advanced. Advanced Offense Offensive Meta are both classifications that hit pretty much all the same target themes like TRM/Hitconfirm OS/How to frametrap Fuzzy Guard/breaking up offensive rhythm/staggering low to match overhead timing... list goes on. All in all everything that you can learn stays more or less relevant, and as more and more techniques get added they just build on a lot of the basic concepts that are outlined as fundamental offensive concepts.
Poultrygeist Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I'm going to make the assumption SKD isn't specifically talking about "BB offensive meta", he's just talking about the general idea of selecting offensive options vs the defensive options your opponent is choosing across fighting games. This is what I assumed. Lately I've put most of my emphasis on trying to block and be patient defensively so I'm very interested in reading about the building blocks of good offense since I'm probably not going to win games by not hitting people.
mAc Chaos Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Meta itself is a word that's acquired a very vague definition over the years. In a basic sense it's synonymous with advanced. Advanced Offense Offensive Meta are both classifications that hit pretty much all the same target themes like TRM/Hitconfirm OS/How to frametrap Fuzzy Guard/breaking up offensive rhythm/staggering low to match overhead timing... list goes on. All in all everything that you can learn stays more or less relevant, and as more and more techniques get added they just build on a lot of the basic concepts that are outlined as fundamental offensive concepts. Close. Meta refers to the game environment and what kinds of strategies it contains. It doesn't have to be advanced techniques by definition, but it usually is because the competitive field strives for it. In MTG it is knowing what decks people are playing and the counters to them. In FGs it can include what characters are strong, and thus what characters will be in tournaments; what kind of setups are in use currently, etc. So when someone says "you have to learn the meta" they mean knowing to prepare for characters like Kokonoe in 1.0 so you don't get facerolled because you expected all Amane mirrors. Just a small nitpick.
Hollysmoke Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Close. Meta refers to the game environment and what kinds of strategies it contains. It doesn't have to be advanced techniques by definition, but it usually is because the competitive field strives for it. In MTG it is knowing what decks people are playing and the counters to them. In FGs it can include what characters are strong, and thus what characters will be in tournaments; what kind of setups are in use currently, etc. So when someone says "you have to learn the meta" they mean knowing to prepare for characters like Kokonoe in 1.0 so you don't get facerolled because you expected all Amane mirrors. Just a small nitpick.So are we discussing 2.0 meta or CPE meta because I don't know anything about CPE meta.
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