Anne Posted November 2, 2014 Author Posted November 2, 2014 Great conversation for the last couple pages, 10/10. Come on people.As far as the whole honest/dishonest thing topic, I find it silly to be honest (hue). Basically what I'm seeing is the use of "honest/dishonest" as a way to sugar coat "I don't think this is cheap/I think this is cheap". We're not getting anything constructive out of this type of discussion. We're basically complaining about things we don't like and praising the things we think are not cheap.This. I actually came here to repost more stuff Jourdal posted up (in case you don't see it). All he did was check out the dan rankings from the guild site and list out what they were, so here you go:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1dAaTYIUAAQb-p.jpgA lot of us tend to keep an eye on these because they fluctuate pretty often, and they let us see who is winning consistently with what characters.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 Makoto must be looking pretty good if Goro can get in the top ten with her; I mean granted it's Goro and his skill is exceptional for a Makoto player, but that's still pretty significant nonetheless.
Moy_X7 Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 It's more of him being a beast of a player and truly understanding his character than Makoto actually being good. Not that she looks THAT weak from what I've seen though. The same principle applies to Konan's Tsubaki. No Platinum God Daiwa on that list makes me sehd, he was probably a one-hit wonder with that Arc Revo top 8 from last year lol.
TeeJay Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 I love how Dogura worded his list. He's still figuring things out it seems. I wonder with playing the game if certain players are like, I really don't care what does other characters do or can do atm.
Galm_II Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1dAaTYIUAAQb-p.jpg 23. Hakumen. Oh boy. 'Mscared.
StylisH Posted November 2, 2014 Posted November 2, 2014 The intersting thing will be watching the character rankinge change as tech gets developed. Who's movin' on up, and who gets their player base abandoned when said list changes.
chzchan Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 That's also something I am looking forward to doing. I want to make a line graph of supposed strength/placement as time goes by. It'll be pretty hard to do because even now perspectives/opinions are pretty mixed and mottled.
TeeJay Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 That's also something I am looking forward to doing. I want to make a line graph of supposed strength/placement as time goes by. It'll be pretty hard to do because even now perspectives/opinions are pretty mixed and mottled. So, something like Power Rankings.
StylisH Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 A lot of you are confusing dishonest with disrespectful. Circus Bear is disrespectful because it assumes your opponent is inexperienced or doesn't know how to get around it if you just throw it out raw without setting it up. Not the same thing as dishonest whatever the hell that even means. I think Moy covered the whole honest/dishonest angle pretty accurately.
Errol Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 I'm pretty sure he's aware of that, the thing is that you have much more to gain from successfully baiting and punishing a DP than if he were to land the DP. Successful bait - high damage combos (unless you're Rachel or Tsubaki lololol) and a gain in momentum or you force him to spend his resources to get out of a sticky situation (Heat/Burst). Successful DP - low damage and a gain in momentum As far as the whole honest/dishonest thing topic, I find it silly to be honest (hue). Basically what I'm seeing is the use of "honest/dishonest" as a way to sugar coat "I don't think this is cheap/I think this is cheap". We're not getting anything constructive out of this type of discussion. We're basically complaining about things we don't like and praising the things we think are not cheap. Rachel (in Cp 1.0 and cp 1.1) does PLENTY of damage to punish you for dping without heat or burst. If you're in the corner in those situations you're probably dead. I'm just saying: What's high risk? In the corner: DP is baited with no burst or heat : you lose DP is baited (blocked) with heat: pressure DP is baited with burst: return to neutral DP is baited by making it whiff: you lose No DP: you lose. the risk of doing nothing when you are playing against Rachel and in the corner is, pretty damn high. Well, it's all relative. If you're playing against someone with high damage and relatively weaker pressure the risk of that dp is high. New tsubaki is kind of like that. Reward is well, reward. it's kind of interesting how it all works out, because the reward for landing a dp against another dp character is way less than the reward for landing a dp against a char without one.
Dreiko Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 In addition to all of the above, the mere existence of a DP is a benefit in and of itself. A benefit much grander than any "reward" from landing one such as the damage and momentum you gain from DPing out of something. It's kinda like Bang's new DD, if you mess up and jump without an air DP/Overdrive you'll get hit but because of this people simply never jump when they don't have those two things. The good part of the move isn't catching people who jump irresponsibly into a 2.5k DD, it's making people not jump. Similarly, when a char has a DP, this affects your ENTIRE approach with regard to blockstrings and pressure as it is clear that you can be DPd through any hole big enough therefore any and all pressure your char can do is SEVERELY hampered versus chars with DPs compared to how it is versus chars without DPs. The whole bait and punish thing is a layer on top of this but there's no debate that despite the HUGE rewards that come from successfully fatal countering a baited DP for a 7k overdrive combo, it's still better for your chances to win to be fighting a char with no DPs. This doesn't even begin to address the fact that smart people simply won't dp if they don't know it'll hit or have meter to RC it and all that stuff's small beans in the end. The big benefit is the overall playstyle adjustment that the DP forces on you which is unlike pretty much any other thing in the game with regards to the effects it has by merely existing as an option.
Errol Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 yeah, very good points. Even rachel, who can bait dps very effectively with pumpkin, is affected a lot by the DP. If you safely bait the DP every time on wakeup, you burn a wind every wind. in CP2 Rachel doesn't have wind - reward on an instant overhead is low, wind recovery is low. one dynamic I find interesting is Hazama 50 meter vs Rachel 50 meter. Tempest Dahlia is great vs a lot of Hazama's options, but if he has 50 heat too, you just eat the 2.5-3k damage for free. So a lot of the time, I won't use TD if hazama is on the ground and use it as soon as he heads to the air. But if I have a life lead, or maybe 100 meter to his 50 meter. I'll use it when he is on the ground... and if he uses it... That 2.5-3k 'free' combo maybe just cost you your life because now when you land a hit, you can't do a jayoku combo, and now when I recover, I can use my extra 50 heat (if I have it), to TD again and get in on hazama with no meter to counter assault. If I don't have the 50 heat to TD again - still. I might actually die in exactly the same number of hits, but if I get in you're in trouble.
Stellarcircle5 Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 You guys wanna talk about baiting DPs being risky? Try not being able to block and relying on a command dash with a small window of I-frames. Seriously though, Dreiko made really great points. I'm honestly scared to pressure any character with a DP of any sort, as there is literally no way to keep them blocking safely without blowing all my resources with wolf brake j.A. This is partly why some of Valks more stressful matchups are against relatively simple characters (Shoutouts to Ragna being 5-5 even in 1.0). This dynamic encourages you to rely on a bait/punish game, which as I stated before can be risky. I oftentimes forgo damage and opt for safe jump setups in situations like this. DPs are spooky.
Kriegdrache Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Great conversation for the last couple pages, 10/10. Come on people.This. I actually came here to repost more stuff Jourdal posted up (in case you don't see it). All he did was check out the dan rankings from the guild site and list out what they were, so here you go:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1dAaTYIUAAQb-p.jpgA lot of us tend to keep an eye on these because they fluctuate pretty often, and they let us see who is winning consistently with what characters.b r J A b o t is the very best name for a Valk player, good show Japan.Also, good to see Film hanging in there!
TD Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Its their way of flipping the bird to unreactable 50/50's. Dont want to worry about DP's? Play nu, relius, even carl. Especially nu since shes very quickly reverting to CT levels of annoying in 2.0.
Dreiko Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Its their way of flipping the bird to unreactable 50/50's. Dont want to worry about DP's? Play nu, relius, even carl. Especially nu since shes very quickly reverting to CT levels of annoying in 2.0. Swords being lvl 2 projectiles is all kinds of dumb for sure but I think Nu was so dumb in CT cause everyone else other than Rachel and Arakune were pretty meh by comparison and she had good MUs against Rachel and Arakune. She'll be annoying but I don't think quite as annoying. (unless you're Tager, then RIP X.x)
Errol Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 I'm not sure if you're underestimating Nu or what, but she's one nasty bitch now. I've played Ragna, Bang, Jin, but they feel similar. Nu feels really bad. Rachel already has very poor 'compatibility' with Nu though, so throwing that on top of a S->B change with Nu going to S. Fuck. But I saw a pretty good Bang player get trashed too.
TD Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 nu can reset pressure for days, can slightly delay swords to screw up IB, gravity is her best reset option which comes back insanely fast as well as being amazing utility for her offensive and defensive zoning, gets very good damage from the braindead ct combo 5dd 4dd (5dd 4dd) 236d RC 5dd 6dd 2dd air combo. due to being able to reverse beat 5dd 4dd into 5dd again and resets very similar to litchi's (but BETTER because too much of the cast cannot do anything about it), good mixup options in a faraway, very safe overhead with safe options afterward including going back into it after gravity/5d, and a command low, in top of good mobility in act parsers and general fast movement, she has very much returned to her former CT glory. even in cp2 where the bottom tiers minus amane actually look GOOD, she is decimating. like you have to block her for a long time now. if you block 6d or 2d now she can sword you down to the ground to start her strings, no thoughts necessary. unless you have a move like bang or amane horizontal reversal supers, there is no reliable way to get out of her long pressure strings without ODR... she may or may not be even worse than CT nu in the long run. she seems mostly developed and most likely wont get too much but players will get better with her and she is already able to shut down so many options that it is not going to be fun fighting her no matter who you are. N-O looked like he was mentally defeated in some of those matches vs naga. that says alot about how this matchup and many others will look like in the long run, because N-O is one of the best rachels in the world, and these characters and players are already seasoned and defined to the point of having very similar styles after every balance patch.
Stellarcircle5 Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 Not being able to block in that matchup is going to be hell. I don't think my body is ready. I've only played a Nu once across 1.0 and 1.1, and it still felt somewhat tricky. Gonna have to grind it out like everyone else.
Dreiko Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 I was just speaking about Nu in general, not about any specific matchup. The matchup with Rachel's definitely lopsided, I never said it wasn't. To base how good Nu is off of that isn't any more valid than basing it off of how well she does vs Valk (which I believe is still quite in his favor) or something though. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
TD Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 The bit about rachel at least from me was only because this was the most recent footage, and the rachel vs nu matchup was the most played during the video. Regardless of whether it is general or not nu will most likely lose alot of her bad matchuos due to her now insanely terrifying offense alone. There doesnt seem to be anything anyone could do reliably against swords now besides trying to avoid them or outright beating them with something, which many charscters just cannot do. She has always sort of ignored defensive system options because of the nature of her swords, but being able to reliably trap people where they are on successful block for 5-10 seconds at a time (if they last that long), is something new for her, or anyone really. Hopefully something changes, like there being some holes in her drive offense perhaps to backdash or jump and make her whiff any followups. As it stands new gravity well negates even those options.
BloodWolF Posted November 3, 2014 Posted November 3, 2014 I was looking forward to this version even after loving CP the most out of any of her versions, but this is depressing to read. No one wants to play a brain-dead game. The uphill battles are always the most enjoyable. All I can do is reserve judgement for a month or so until I can get my hands on it to test it out, though.
TD Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 I mean its our job to figure it out and im sure thats what many people are going to do. No one is going to hold our hands and at some point or another most characters and therefore players had top tier status. Its not the end of the world. I for the most part was explaning her top status. She may not be the best candidate for top but it is what it is. Not gonna stop me from trying to win tournaments (as soon as i get enough time to start entering again :< ) But seriously she might end up getting some hatemail, just embrace it i guess.
BloodWolF Posted November 4, 2014 Posted November 4, 2014 Oh, I appreciate the explanation of her new gameplay. I haven't been on top of the changes and such, so it's really appreciated. I'm not going to stop playing her over tiers...or anything for that matter. I just worry about the depth of her abilities and combos. I guess what I'm just saying is that I hope she's as technical and enjoyable to play in the long run as the current version...and that's something I won't know until I get to play it myself. Hatemail will come either way. It's just a matter of how much. lol.
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