OmnixTSC

I really don't think trying to reflexively 2A/5A Azrael as he approaches is a good idea. I often get CH for doing that. I also don't feel that up-backing Azrael is the answer, as you will get caught jumping most of the time. Just learn how his pressure works and IB to punish what you can.

Coming from someone that plays Hakumen and Makoto side-by-side, I can honestly say that Makoto's OD usage is laughable in comparison. Is it bad? Not by any means. But the reward off it isn't nearly as good as it is for some of the other characters. I'm sure we'll be fine in the update. I already have some ideas for 6B if it works the way I think it will.

I remember playing him as well. Suffice to say I didn't have any lasting impressions of his Tsubaki :/

I've been trying to come up with something to say for the "Liz is like a watered-down A.B.A." argument, but I have nothing. I really just don't see this in the slightest.

Nice to see this thread is as entertaining as ever. Strawman's and weak analogies abound, causing even more arguments to show up over solid discussion. Bravo *slow claps* *cough* Anyways...a lot of the changes on the list make sense to me. I just wish Hakumen and Makoto got more interesting buffs.

We pretty much have to be a little more conscious of our resources with these changes. I actually think 6D buff might be somewhat relevant, though I'll just wait and see on that one. As for j.D > Agito, it'll probably work like either FC Agito or Mugen Agito (which could be interesting). I'm actually fine with these changes, though I really wish we had gotten a few more options at the cost of average damage.

Honestly, Carl's neutral against characters like Hakumen and Mu isn't that bad. Sure, his doll movement is limited a good bit, but he still has options. His neutral isn't too bad against Ragna or Jin, either. Most characters lose some options when they have to deal with different toolsets in general. Anyways, I just wanted to say that I don't feel that Bullet or Makoto are all that good for a beginner to pick up, at least not atm. Sure, their combos aren't too big of a deal in comparison to the rest of the cast. Both of them have a lot of issues at neutral that even a beginner can exploit if they're at least aware of how far certain buttons extend or relatively how fast their normals are. Their pressure and tools gets blown up really easily by mashing at times, as well. That can be kind of off-putting to a new player.

Sorry that I didn't get to play you last night, mAc. I wanted to, but I was tired and had some things to do after playing my friends. I'll see if I have time tonight D:

Sounds good. I'll help and participate, as usual.

I just leave my opponent alone at times after scoring a 3C. You don't always have to chase them down when we have a reasonable enough neutral game. I will sometimes wait to see what they do without trying to catch them for their decision. Instead of trying to punish a roll/tech/delay tech, I just set up the proper spacing to take advantage of neutral based on what they do after the 3C.

Ugh...guys. We could already do CH 5B > D Garu. Did you forget already?

You can still make interesting changes to a general formula within a game and keep the characters/mechanics relatively balanced. Is it hard to do so? Yes, if previous incarnations of fighters are anything to go on. Arcsys needs to at least TRY to not have advantages skewed so heavily in the favor of the top-tiers. They're doing better than most other FG making companies overall, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to improve things. The top-tier has different characters from game to game, but the gaps between the S, A, B, and C tiers has been practically the same (at least in BB).

Nah, it's totally the latter. Tsubaki works strangely in CP and Liz doesn't work in P4U2. They're obviously drunk on their own power while playing The King's Game.

Liz's SP gain should work like Hakumen's heat gain in BB (I don't know why it's so hard for them to do that). It would have to be a slightly gimped Haku-esque meter, but it could work relatively the same way. Have a decrease in the SP gain rate after using specials, with the extent of the decrease being dependent on whether you used a normal or SB special. If it wasn't for the fact that OMC'ing kills meter gain, we wouldn't have as many issues with meter gain. I'm not saying they should change that, as it makes perfect sense that OMCs work that way. It just sucks that it inconveniences Liz who is reliant on meter to do everything.

I was basing my analysis off of P4A as well. The MU really isn't as bad as people think...just, people don't play it properly lol. We didn't really come up with anything specific. Just a lot of "she should focus on rushdown/mixup/neutral" or something along those lines. I personally think her moveset is fine, but they would have to alter the properties on all of her options to some extent so that she can be geared towards a particular style. She can be a "jack-of-all-trades-for-everything-but-this-one-thing-she's-good-at." An example would be for a rushdown oriented Liz. They could allow Liz to reliably apply pressure with her own normals while something like 2C is active (I'm excluding OMCs). They could give Thanatos a low hitting Persona normal (albeit one with reasonable startup), for instance. Liz could make use of some more high/low scenarios in general. Every other character has more viable high/low mixups (or more viable mixups in general) than Liz. There's one thing about Liz that I've been meaning to point out for a while, though some of you probably noticed. A lot of her moveset fulfills arguably the same functions at different parts of the screen. They all (with the exception of j.C, 5D, j.D, and maybe Bufu) force your opponent to stay in place if you choose to use them for that purpose. 5C > 2C, 5C > 2OMC > 5C, Garu > OMC > Stuff, Zio > OMC > Stuff. All of these provide you with some way of continuing to apply pressure to your opponent without having any real mixup off of these tools. You often have to spend an additional 50 SP if stagger pressure doesn't work or your opponent refuses to twitch and get hit or grabbed. It's kind of depressing when your only means of landing a hit stems from, "Oh, they messed up. Yay..."

Nah, the Liz vs Kanji MU is actually pretty arguable. If anything it's 5.5-4.5 Liz's favor, 5-5, or 5.5-4.5 Kanji's favor As far as the discussion for "how Liz could be altered to fix her issues" goes, I feel as if things might have to change drastically. I remember that during a number of conversations I've had with bace he brought up the notion of completely changing Liz being the only "true" way of fixing her. It was kind of an off an on discussion as we went back and forth between this and what tools Liz could get to compensate for her faults. There were some other players that agreed with the former when we talked with them about it. I'm starting to see that (from what we've been able to grasp so far) Liz may need to have a definitive play-style in order to avoid being an above average jack-of-all-trades should they buff her or...well, being subpar. Also, we can finally play neutral with Liz! All those days of playing Hakumen can now be reflected in my Liz play b/c her neutral is almost the same (with beams, of course)! Now all we need is for Arcsys to finally decide on how to "fix" Liz so we can focus on something (mixup, oki, pressure, etc.).

They wouldn't need more absurd tech if the S-tiers were normalized. The S-tiers could still be just that if the reward off of some of their options was lowered. Valk and to a lesser extent Tao can pick up off of practically everything, still do reasonable damage and then put you in the knockdown blender. Hazama can derp you at neutral and hits hard whenever he feels like it. Litchi has great normals as well as strong oki and a strong neutral game. I don't even want to say anything about Kokopuffs. I'll leave that one alone. At the end of the day, I feel the B and C tiered characters are fine outside of a few tweaks here and there that would make sense for each character. What those characters are good at should allow said characters to compete reasonably well with the other tiers. They shouldn't have to play catch-up to the A-tiers and completely dominate their S-tier opponents who have better tools than they do. P.S. Hakumen has DAT BURST damage, a pretty strong neutral game, and near-logic-defying Agito...but he isn't S-tier imo. He sits right at the top of A-tier along with Rachel. Just a side tidbit

I don't. That's what they get for not blocking my american reset. That'll teach them to always crouch block during my combos looking for a drop!

I try :D Heck, I do this with Hakumen and Makoto. Nobody ever sees 6B > 5D > 6B coming with Haku or 6B > RC > 6B with Mak!

Da gawd now and forever

Makoto is just extremely solid. She's not good, she's not great, and she's not terrible. She's a character with a solid gameplan that's completely honest. This is where the issue with Makoto is, though. She's solid and fair...yet the majority of the cast has something that's at least a good bit obnoxious (or absurdly so). In a game where most of the characters you'll be dealing with have something that'll make you go, "Oh, that's silly," not having a tool or form of setplay that gives that feeling makes you weak in comparison. Mak has to outplay her opponent at neutral, at close-range, etc. and has no means of stealing a win. This would be totally fine if the top-tiers weren't so silly. Platinum is basically in the same boat, albeit with a stronger neutral game thanks to items. Bullet at the very least has damage, but her tools aren't as useful as the other two characters. For instance, she has a lot more issues at neutral than Mak and Plat thanks to her movement options and slightly lacking normals. Oh, and Bullet's mixup isn't too hot either.

His pressure is okay, but I don't have much of an issue with opening people up. Haku's mixup game is lacking, but it's never been all that great to begin with. We've just "lost" one of our more significant pressure/mixup tools with the overall throw nerf. It's all about your meter management to know what tools will work against a certain player. I feel as if you have to pick up on your opponents' habits a lot more quickly in CP than past games if you're trying to win by outplaying your opponents. I rarely get to go for those giant bursts damage combos b/c I win at neutral or bait the other player properly, which causes them to lose to a lot of smaller combos and pseudo-mixup before any of Haku's apparent weaknesses come into play for me. I would like to see his pressure/mixup improve a bit with the balance patch in exchange for damage, as I really just want his damage to be toned down a bit. I honestly don't care if I don't get anything in exchange for less damage...I don't feel like it will affect me much.

The outrage is rarely justified. His damage isn't as over-the-top as some people will have you believe b/c of what you sacrifice to do that damage at times. You lose meter that you need for mixup/pressure to do that 4-5k damage or you spent the meter on a mixup that didn't work and are now short a means of doing dat damage. Now, there are times where I question the amount of damage I'm doing. Those hate-causing-combos are so rare now, though. All that aside, the best part is when you question someone's character choice. Me: "Wait...what character are you playing to have this many issues with Haku's neutral and damage?" Response: "Oh, I'm playing Hazama." Me: "..."

Nah, Hop > Agito > j.D has always worked. It's one of the only reasons that Hop > Agito is even viable.

I'm assuming we just won't profit from Haku loops and such as much. Overall, our heat gain for our go to combos may be lessened. Also...this Haku hate in the CP news thread is very entertaining. I'm thoroughly enjoying my visit to the realm of shenanigans and half truths.