OmnixTSC

Nah, it's no big deal. We're all grasping for straws here Waiting for console is what I keep getting told to do by Bace. "Just wait for console and don't worry about it until then." I think I have too much fun speculating and theory fighting, though. Maybe that's what this all is, haha.

I mostly just said that a lot of the changes evened out for the most part. She lost damage in areas and got it in others. I didn't see the PF nerf, though. That's kinda funny. She did lose accessibility to oki options, though. Especially since it's harder to set it up without completely killing your damage.

Makoto isn't getting nerfed like most of DL will have you believe. Most of her changes balanced out. I really wish they would stop crying lol. We can do this, but you'll have to wait until we actually get the game for this to mean something. For all we know, we could find stuff that Japan doesn't when the game hits consoles that suddenly makes Liz viable (though not likely). There's also the chance that Arc Sys will come to their senses and address some of her issues without having much player feedback.

I get where you were coming from, but that isn't always the case. You can be an incomplete character and not be geared towards the "I can do everything kinda okaish" format. Look at Terumi in BBCP. He is most definitely incomplete pre-patch and doesn't try to do everything under the sun like Liz does. More-so than Liz being incomplete, I think they just didn't make her options viable while giving her access to pretty much everything (barring good movement options). I think that's what they wanted to do, I'm just confused as to why they would want to do that (like the rest of you are).

I wasn't really pointing fingers or anything, as only the first paragraph (if you can call it that) of my post was directed at you two. I just neglected to point that out b/c I was about ready to go to sleep The rest was just a generalization of some Liz's problem atm.

Do you plan on filling out the OD sections as well for post-patch combos?

She doesn't need to have a good meter:damage ratio. Liz needs to just get something out of using her meter. At the end of the day, she could have 100 SP and it amounts to nothing. Her neutral doesn't improve even slightly, her mixup is never really expanded (2B > OMC be damned), and she doesn't get any improvements as far as damage is concerned. Liz has all these status ailment inflicting moves that amount to nothing most of the time, as she can't capitalize off of anything that isn't Fear. Paralysis would be all well and good if we actually benefited from it. We spend meter on it in this version to get comparative neutral/mixup to what we have without it, the difference being that we're now finding ourselves with less meter to play around with. Negative Penalty would be good if we could realistically apply it to our game plan. Poison forces you to make use of either a weak zoning game or a lacking rushdown game, being nullified if you're so much as scratched. Freeze setups aren't even worthwhile now that we can't force it on opponents whimsically. Mind Charge being gimped doesn't leave us many viable opportunities to apply Confusion, so that status ailment is ruled out as well. I just don't see why we have all these tools and can make use of practically none of them. Whoever thought this current version of Liz was a good idea really needs to reevaluate their game designing or, in this case, character designing ability. I can tell you that even without looking at the frame data, most people would feel her current design is completely nonsensical. A Jack-Of-All-Trades utilizes everything at their disposal at an average or decent level at the bare minimum, not at a comparatively lower level to who or what that person is forced to address.

I meant that the name was just 'Debilitate'. It wasn't 'Debilitate (Catch)' in the mook, where as the other one actually was listed as 'Debilitate (Counter)' leading me to name the other as catch. I changed them to match the P4A data so that the labeling could be consistent. Sorry if I confused anyone I want to see what kind of situations can arise from invuling Debilitate/Randomizer. I already want to test things like 5B(1) > B/SB Thunder Fists with Akihiko (not as an OS, just to see what happens). The only thing is that there probably aren't OS's for dealing with guardpoint. In most games, you just end up safe-jumping said guardpoint since they don't actually catch you. I also wonder if Debilitate doesn't work on a neutral opponent similar to Liz's IK (though I didn't see anything listed for that unless I missed something in the moonrunes)

After playing you on netplay today...yes, yes you are.

No start-up information was in the mook, so I just left it blank. We know that stuff > DP will beat it, but we don't know how much time you have to actually DP before you get captured or if DP will even whiff in some situations and get punished (though Debilitate has a good bit of recovery, lol).

I guess in my mind I thought that the part that actually "catches" the opponent should be the one labeled as such. I couldn't really figure out how I wanted to label it all b/c there was nothing in the mook for the the part where Debilatate/IK activates, just for the part that counters them (aka the first part). The other part just said the name of the move, so I defaulted that to the catch portion Do you guys notice anything else that seems odd? Question anything and everything in that wiki for me, please.

Well, it sure took me long enough. I finished updating the wiki with the information in the mook, so here it is at last. Don't hold your breath, guys (P4AU) Elizabeth Frame Data Edit: Oh, before I forget...be sure to bug me if I messed something up so I can go fix it! There was so much information that I had to change/add that I might have messed up somewhere. Hopefully I didn't, though.

Nah, I'm not rushing. Almost finished, actually. And by almost I mean I'm still filling in stuff

Can you test anything that comes to mind with 6B? Oki, combos, whatever. We really need to start seeing what this all leads to. Other than that...ugh...there's nothing really...there? I guess? I don't know, I'm grasping at straws. Having two of the characters I play often in two different games get nerfed for no reason is kinda disheartening, so I'm at a loss at the moment.

I'm slowly but surely working on the frame data for Liz, guys. I should hopefully be finished later tonight (if I'd stop playing BBCP all day).

This would be fair if Liz wasn't utter garbage in this game. The Aigis MU is going to be worse now if we can't Agi or Zio missiles on reaction. Even if we have to trade with her by punishing the recovery on it, that's fine. It allows her to get in for free at fullscreen if we can't do either of these, though. I guess we can just jump into the air and block or Garu since she can't AUB us, but she does have that command grab, so...

Not allowed to yet. You'll have to wait for the translations.

I'll be honest. If we're only worried about playing the US most of the time, it won't matter if some of us still play Liz unless we move to an area with a stacked tourney. The US scene blows as far as skill level goes, haha. *Cough*A-anyways...Liz's frame data is absolutely terrible. Bace isn't going to give up on her without trying, and neither am I. We just...don't see anything there, especially not after seeing the frame data. We've talked about it a bit and things are just not looking good

So when I migrate to the Yukari forums...I want none of you to say anything.

GGs Mac Sorry, that last drop was the final straw. I had about 60% of my confirms drop for no reason, and I got my punishes extremely late even after I called you out on stuff that was completely punishable. I couldn't take anymore of that T-T

Nah, Imma just say El-oh-chai-kai from now on. It's comical

Setora looks like a fairly new player. A lot of his/her habits are reminding me of month 1-2 netplay Liz players (back when I hadn't started using Liz). The best part was seeing people walk into 5Cs that weren't frame traps and trying to jump out of 5C/2C pressure. I don't expect many players to know how to deal with that when Liz is practically nonexistent over there.

I'm the secret 5th! I mean...uh...third? Yeah, that. Where's Team Aki and Team Liz? Elochai, aren't you repping both? And what happened to Kyokugen? Edit: Never mind, they're both here lol.

This was exactly what I was going to bring up. As a tool for mixups and far ranged neutral, j.C is looking like it'll open up some options for us. I'm thinking that instant air j.C is going to be one of our main punishment tools with the amount of damage I'm expecting (even though the combos we've seen were short and/or dropped). I was happy to see the prominent Liz in the videos Elochai linked actually playing neutral and spacing Liz's normals properly. It's like somebody *gasps* actually understands how to use the character! All joking aside, the combos were a bit lacking, but this player did really well. His playstyle is a bit different from Damosu, so I wonder who it is?

Guard point, eh? Too bad that won't do us any good with something that requires us to hold forward with a character that already has no health. Thanks Arc Sys for making sense! We do appreciate it! ... ...