[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Sophisticat]

I'll get to reading the essays later for lack of time atm, so I'll make this short: giving him a command grab would be OP.

The simple answer is because of Kishuu. It would become a gdlk move with tons of options with an added c-grab.

You have lows, overheads, and now a c-grab off it. If they try to jump out, then they eat Hotaru/5a/etc. If they try to retaliate, then they risk getting countered unless they anticipated Kishuu which isn't always likely if you use it right since it's a pretty fast move on its own.

That's OP if you ask me unless I'm missing something.

[SteelCoil]

Aesthetically, I couldn't agree more but as far as game play is concerned i feel like throws are an even more integral part of Haku's pressure compared to most of the cast just due to the fact that Haku does not have many tools to pressure, especially when we have no meter. That's why i think the command grab is a good option just don't make it super OP, just make it a extra tool to open somebody up.

I know.

However, there are many times when we should really put those silly aesthetic reasons above gameplay balance.

Hakumen would do better with a command grab, but there are other ways to make his pressure better without sacrificing his image.

Simple stuff like giving him more frame advantage, more meter, or more damage/range off of normal grab seem like reasonable enough changes to buff our two-handed swordsman without turning him into a backstreet brawler.

I mean, giving Hakumen a command grab almost feels equivalent to giving Tager a spammable full-screen projectile.

It may make him a better character if implemented correctly, but the very existence of the new move creates a huge departure from his initial design.

As I said before, because Hakumen is a pretty established character at this point, I'd have to disagree with any attempt at giving him a command grab, no matter how much it makes sense balance-wise.

Because even though a certain change may indeed improve balance, that doesn't mean any aesthetic-related problems it raises should be ignored.

[mAc Chaos]

I could see him doing a headbutt style move, it's not that different than his 6A, but just not as a command grab. Maybe as his normal throw animation or something if it was supposed to stagger only.

[Saeor12]

I mean, giving Hakumen a command grab almost feels equivalent to giving Tager a spammable full-screen projectile.

lol Spark Bolt?? Think of how much happier they could be if it could be spammed. j/k

Yeah i can see how moving him towards a more "brawly" type a character doesn't fit Haku very well. I just hope they give him some help with his pressure in CP.

Not expecting true block strings or anything but just something so that we might not have to play zoner just to wait for meter to start playing offense or at least not hitting counters so hard with the nerfbat so we can go back to our true defensive nature.

/opinions

[mAc Chaos]

I don't wait for my stars to fill up anymore. I just move in on them when they give me space in neutral and do what damage I can. It adds up. 3C, they fall, then I hop over and 6B, they fall, then I throw and by then I have some stars, etc.

[SteelCoil]

Hey, if you want a real slow, offensive character, you can always just hop onto the Azrael train.

[SimpleKiss]

You're going to quit Blazblue because Zantetsu, a move you don't use more than 3-5% of the time, got nerfed? I suppose it's an unnecessary nerf, but at this point, complaining about values of damage modifiers is really dumb.

Damage is always relative to what everyone else is doing. Zantetsu might be a big chunk in the new game - or it might be a big nerf. Hard to say at this point. In UMVC3, doing 70% damage combos is weak because if you can't tod someone then who gives a fuck.

In SF4, anyone with 30% + BnBs was a lot of damage and really OP. It all depends on what damage everyone else in the game will be doing on average. And we won't know what that is until the game comes out. in CT, 3.5k I'd say was about the norm. CS2, the average was about 2.8k with about 4k average in the corner.

Also, giving hakumen a command grab would be like giving Zangief a divekick.

just my 2c.

[dioxideUniversa]

[Warhound]

My typo would say otherwise, but, no he doesn't need a command grab.

I was really pulling for Agito to add something fresh to his gameplay. If the following loketests don't show us anything, then that's going to be a serious downer. The idea of a comboable cross-up sounds great, and I highly doubt the very obvious terribleness of this new move will be overlooked.

Just...waitin' for next loketest.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Hey, if you want a real slow, offensive character, you can always just hop onto the Azrael train.

You're going to quit Blazblue because Zantetsu, a move you don't use more than 3-5% of the time, got nerfed? I suppose it's an unnecessary nerf, but at this point, complaining about values of damage modifiers is really dumb.

Damage is always relative to what everyone else is doing. Zantetsu might be a big chunk in the new game - or it might be a big nerf. Hard to say at this point. In UMVC3, doing 70% damage combos is weak because if you can't tod someone then who gives a fuck.

In SF4, anyone with 30% + BnBs was a lot of damage and really OP. It all depends on what damage everyone else in the game will be doing on average. And we won't know what that is until the game comes out. in CT, 3.5k I'd say was about the norm. CS2, the average was about 2.8k with about 4k average in the corner.

Also, giving hakumen a command grab would be like giving Zangief a divekick.

just my 2c.

Some strong points here. Very insightful.

snip

lol

[Darkside937]

I already quit BB months ago. BBCP's trailer reignited my interest, but after seeing the loketest's tentative changes like Zantetsu's damage being lowered, that interest evaporated.

It's not just that Zantetsu got nerfed; that's part if the larger problem, being that every iteration of the game has seen downgrades in median character strength. I prefer fighters that are balanced because the roster feels equally strong, not equally weak. Lower average damage isn't the complaint itself--it's merely a symptom.

I made a more in-depth post on this a few pages back, but to summarize: Every time something strong gets discovered, Arc nerfs the absolute shit out of it, which to me makes the game more and more boring and leading to the current state of the game being a pillow fighter. I don't want BB to become Marvel (as it has the opposite problem if being too far in the other direction of the spectrum and IMO is a terrible game anyways for reasons I won't bother getting into here), but just look at the system mechanics Arc has deemed "too strong":

- Certain moves being used twice in a combo

- Gold bursts

- Instant Block

- Proration across the board

That's not even mentioning directly Hakumen related stuff since I already did in my other post or countless setups/mixups/tactics for other characters.

By severely limiting strong tools and options, it chips away at player freedom and creativity, making the cast and game feel homogenized and lame. Arc has taken this to the extreme, where there are so few options worth using anymore, that the variation between different players' playstyles is much smaller than in other, more interesting fighters. In addition, this makes battles seem much less tense overall as the stakes and hype levels are so much lower, and spectating becomes a snoozefest. For me, playing the game has too.

It's disappointing since the solution is so simple. Instead of balancing the game through nerfs, why not balance it through buffs? GGAC is a fantastic example of how much fun a fighter can be when everyone in the roster has several strong tools available to them without anyone being overly powerful. Why not go that route, instead of steamrolling everything into a flat landscape of blandness?

[Isuna]

I will use those wise words for my signature.

edit: was too long >_<

Edited August 22, 2012 by Isuna

[mAc Chaos]

> pillow fighter

wtf

whats that mean

EDIT: wait

playing the game is boring -> snoozefest -> AHA

Anyway I agree with everything you're saying. Especially the dynamic characters and differences in style was one of BB's original selling points.

And damagewise, it could be fine balancewise being low with the way they're setting it up -- but I want Hakumen's damage to be high just because of how the character is supposed to feel.

If everybody did 1k and it was perfectly balanced I wouldn't really like that since Hakumen is supposed to be a bruiser.

Edited August 18, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[xlolxlolx]

someone post tldrs plz

[mAc Chaos]

too late; already read

[Isuna]

too late; done reading*

All I ask for is that we get to keep J2A and have a useful drive button.

[mAc Chaos]

drive is OP plz nerf

[Darkside937]

Pillow fighter = slang for a fighting game where the overall strength of the cast and mechanics are relatively low, thus bearing likeness to a pillow fight since everything feels so wimpy.

[BladeOfJustice7]

- Certain moves being used twice in a combo

I'm sorry, as much as I love Hakumen, but 5c>zantetsu>5c> zantetsu>3c were lame as damaging combos. I do want him to have high damage output but I want to have to put in work to get out that damage, like the combos he has in bbcsex, he hits hard and his combos are by no means easy to perform. That's what I like, but those combos could easily be 4-5k and maybe even nearly 6k.

- Gold bursts

They are stupid, an invincible wakeup reversal that's plus on block.

- Instant Block

Didn't they make all moves additionally -10 in the older iterations of the game? That's a bit much don't you think?

- Proration across the board

In terms of csex, I'm fine with the damage output of everyone. Calamity Trigger was a bit much, 2 combos and then GGs.

By severely limiting strong tools and options, it chips away at player freedom and creativity, making the cast and game feel homogenized and lame. Arc has taken this to the extreme, where there are so few options worth using anymore, that the variation between different players' playstyles is much smaller than in other, more interesting fighters. In addition, this makes battles seem much less tense overall as the stakes and hype levels are so much lower, and spectating becomes a snoozefest. For me, playing the game has too.

I have heard complaints about that, and I can see where you're coming on that issue. We shall see how they handle hakumen in cp, hopefully it won't be in the direction that you feel they're headed in. Because killing his drive would be like killing his damage output (cs2), which makes him a completely subpar nigh useless character in the cast.

It's disappointing since the solution is so simple. Instead of balancing the game through nerfs, why not balance it through buffs? GGAC is a fantastic example of how much fun a fighter can be when everyone in the roster has several strong tools available to them without anyone being overly powerful. Why not go that route, instead of steamrolling everything into a flat landscape of blandness?

BB is still young and they're trying to figure out what direction they want to go with it. But nerfing to hell certain characters who were top is not something I agree with either.

cs rachel, cs2 hakumen, csex makoto were excessive in terms of balancing. It was almost as if they are punishing those characters for being strong in the first place. GG on the other hand, as you've stated headed in the right direction, I personally found csex hakumen was where he was supposed to be, I just wish they kept that in mind when making this new game.

drive is OP plz nerf

I really hope they don't make his drive useless like the loke tests have shown or else I don't think I'll be using him as much as I do in csex. This whole being able to block his drive is sounding really bad and it's funny how people assume we autopilot his counters lol. It'll mean people will be able to stay on hakumen at all times and basically do whatever they want to him, especially since he is always in the blocking punishing position.

Edited August 18, 2012 by BladeOfJustice7

[Sophisticat]

Ok, had time to read that tl;dr stuff.

First off, good write up Mr. Minion. I agree with your analysis of his pressure tools, though I think you forgot to include his jump unless that was intentional?

Haku does not have true blockstrings in the sense of other characters, but he still has some A <-> B chains such as 5a -> 2a -> 2b -> Special, etc. 5a and 5b are also jump cancellable and in the corner this provides some great pressure for fuzzy j.B shenanigans.

Even midscreen you can make use of this. For example, something I might do:

Hop in -> 2b -> 2a -> 5a/b -> jump in/out, etc.

Jump in j.B ->

Or even Jump in -> 2a -> Tick throw

Etc.

As I recall, 5b still hits on block even after two 2Bs. Or maybe it's one. Whatever the case, you have plenty to work with on 5a/b block and setting up TRM throw is always good to have as well.

In any case, I simply believe that good use of his A <-> B chains and jump/hop/Kishuu provide enough to mount some pressure over your opponent. He'll slip up at some point, then you do Renka(K) combo for 3k and carry to the corner.

He's a beast if done right, especially in CSEX. I do believe his pressure is quite good even without stars.

[SteelCoil]

j.B > 5A is amazing.

Also, whether or not 5B can hit a crouching opponent at a certain distance depends on hitbox stuff.

Some characters have a larger crouch block hurtbox than crouch neutral. So against certain characters, you have to be quick with your blockstrings to hit with a 5B.

Others have a smaller crouch block hurtbox, which means you have to delay the 5B so it hits the opponent when he's out of blockstun.

And then there are characters with smaller crouch hurtboxes in general.

Stuff like that is why I don't like using 5B at the end of blockstrings.

Hakumen doesn't really need 5B at the latter end of pressure anyway.

[Darkside937]

I agree with your analysis of his pressure tools, though I think you forgot to include his jump unless that was intentional?

If you're talking about fuzzy guard stuff, then yeah. I was going for coverage of his pressure concepts, and thusly didn't really go into stuff like fuzzies since they're mixups, which I feel are another topic (although related).

But regarding my disappointment in regards to BB, I digress. I think I've shared enough about why I feel that way, and don't want to be "that guy," so I'll stop here. I hope everyone looking forward to BBCP enjoys it, but unless the game ends up being drastically different from what I expect it to, I will be investing my time into other games.

[Sophisticat]

^ I actually agree with you that CP might disappoint. They need to drastically alter the game to make it fresh again. If they keep going in the same direction they were, I think BB's going to be pronounced dead in maybe 1-3 years.

Nerfing things like that is never fun. I've been saying that all BB needs is to be a faster game and that alone would do plenty to rejuvenate it. It needs CT's fun factor, plain and simple.

[Warhound]

Mori has at least noted that he wants CP to be a faster game, right? He knows people like combos but, he doesn't want them to last forever. Like I said, it's the first loketest, of which I'm sure there will be like 4. So There's time to make Hakumen not shit, and to hopefully see some use in his counters.

Better yet, make everyone broken. And when everyone is broken!...

hahahaha!...

No one will be...

[shinobispectre]

mind = blown ^