Rhiya Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 I seem to recall Jan placing into SBO as Tager, a character people would decree as a flawed character. Is this not an example of skill far overwhelming what some people would call a character handicap? If you're bad at the game, playing a strong character won't change how bad you are, on the flip side, an experienced and skilled player can do amazing things with so called "bad characters". Yes, some characters have obvious strengths in comparison to others, but in truth it always comes down to how good you are at playing the game. "Your character is better than mine" will always be a contrite excuse for poor play. Learn the matchup and use your tools correctly. Uhhhhhh This is all fine and dandy, except when you don't have the tools to deal with the matchup well Let's say... Tager vs. Mu. Tager is low tier precisely because he doesn't even have the tools to use correctly, lol
Lord Knight Posted April 6, 2011 Author Posted April 6, 2011 LK, am I playing the matchup right? v. Vice-Taicho (LI) I need to improve so you don't steamroll us come Easter. You did some good stuff. You cut shishin, you did Yukikaze against Daisharin (though admittedly he didn't do a good one). . . did you Yukikaze because he doesn't bait it with Daisharin? I was surprised you didn't just counter the other Daisharin too. You gave him way too much respect in the air, he was hopping around doing airthrow a lot. Litchi needs to be 1-1/2 character lengths away to be a threat to Hakumen air-to-air, and he seemed to be very content to play neutral, where you win. He did ItsuuB in CS1 against Hakumen, take your free poke. If you didn't drop combos you probably would've beaten him, you did some good stuff (the way you beat quick get up Hatsu was great, I laughed). Anyways, it was ok. You missed a lot of counters. . . if they get too zealous with baiting counters it's a free escape or opening so you should notice it and adapt. He played pretty safe but I don't think he plays the matchup right. The confusing thing for me was why you were jumping in with barrier at like midrange, he wasn't positioned for 2C and he never used 5B aa. 5A anti-air is not scary for you at all. Okay, serious question. With CS2 about to some around the corner, we'll get another good shot at revamping the matchup sections of DL. You have said several times before that the matchups sections on the site are a bit lacking and I agree. Personally, I think they could stand to be alot less broad and more specific, but I wanted to know. As one of the more experienced players (and writer of excellent Litchi matchup details), what kind of things should a player be looking for in matchups, and what would be the best way to improve the matchup stuff when CS2 does finally roll around? Look for the things that work, and look for the things that you struggle against. For matchups I need to know what my character can and can't do, and what they can and can't do, in each phase of the match. That's why when I take notes on it I write about all sections of neutral (fullscreen/midscreen/pointblank, air to air and air to ground and ground to air), look at pressure (is there anything annoying they keep doing that I can't readily beat?), mixup (instant overheads? normals safe on ib that forces a guess? silly gimmicks?). Presumably when you're looking into refining your matchups, you're already good with your character, so the amount of work you got to put in on your side is much less (research wise). You know the general gameplan for your character, so it's adding specific things that are effective against that character. Some game BB is then. LK, what's your opinion on GG? GG is fun. BB and GG are two games I both enjoy. To be honest, BB is a pretty fair game, there's just shit like Arakune existing and stuff that I don't like. I feel like it's probably among the better new school fg's to come out.
KayEff Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 But.. :< Arakune loves you. He loves everybody. Let's not start with that now, alright?
Zidane Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) I seem to recall Jan placing into SBO as Tager, a character people would decree as a flawed character. Is this not an example of skill far overwhelming what some people would call a character handicap? If you're bad at the game, playing a strong character won't change how bad you are, on the flip side, an experienced and skilled player can do amazing things with so called "bad characters". Yes, some characters have obvious strengths in comparison to others, but in truth it always comes down to how good you are at playing the game. "Your character is better than mine" will always be a contrite excuse for poor play. Learn the matchup and use your tools correctly. Yes, an experienced and skilled player could do amazing things with low tier characters. How many of those play BB in the US? Probably count them on one hand. You're also not taking into account ( and I mean no disrespect towards Jan because I think he's a great FG player and deserved to win ) that Tager is a character that, if the opponent guesses wrong / Tager guesses right, you could win the round in 2-3 Tager busters / heat fist combos. So Jan either was so much more skilled than the others, guessed right, the opponents guessed wrong or he caused the opponents to guess wrong. So you either have to be godlike or rely on random guesses. What a great character. Yes it always down come down to who is the more skilled player ( for the most part ). Except tier lists are there to show you what characters win based on evenly-skilled players. Me and Jan played online and I beat him 10-1, Hazama v. Tager. Am I talking shit? no. Am I saying i'm a better play than him? God no. Jan is better than me and I destroyed him cause his character sucks and mine doesn't. No amount of learning the matchup, using his tools or stepping it up will stop that. So yeah, unless you're leagues ahead of your competition in skill, top tier will shit on everyone else in BB. EDIT: For CS1 anyway. Maybe CS2 is better, who knows Edited April 6, 2011 by Zidane
C0R Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 The argument I'm making is that you can be leagues ahead with dedication, there's always the run-back, and that you don't guarantee yourself loser's bracket at the character select screen.
Zidane Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 You don't guarantee loser's bracket based on who you pick, but you significantly hinder your chances of winning if you're playing someone like say, Tager or Rachel. Meanwhile, if I pick Litchi, i'm increasing my chances of winning. And no one in America OR Japan has been leagues ahead of anyone to win major tournaments with low tier in BB. Or even place. Know what games has people placing / winning tournies with low tier? Guilty Gear. Yeah, that's right. Hold that shit BB fans. Anyway, sorry LK for ruining your thread!
Nini Heart Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 Don't mean to talk shit or take away anything from anyone, but US level at the time of SBO quals was much lower than it is now. That could also factor in as to why a Tager was dominating. Reminds me of the Montreal scene. Our top player was a Tager player, now everyone is levelling up and he's not winning much anymore cause people know Tager now and he's hitting the limits of what you can do with Tager. Because honestly, there are some characters who just have to play the match up right and Tager can't do anything about it.
FlyingVe Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Because honestly, there are some characters who just have to play the match up right and Tager can't do anything about it. This. Alot of players either don't know how, or refuse to play the Tager matchup well. Oft times, you just play super lame. Not saying this had anything to do with the SBO and Jan, but many players don't really adapt to different matchups well.
Nini Heart Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 This. Alot of players either don't know how, or refuse to play the Tager matchup well. Oft times, you just play super lame. Not saying this had anything to do with the SBO and Jan, but many players don't really adapt to different matchups well. I was at this point when playing Hazama vs Tager. I still held on to principles and shit like not playing lame. I was losing. Then one day I went to a meet up super hungover and high and i was like holy shit, my execution and reaction are ass currently, only way i'm gonna win is by playing the match up right in this state. So I did nothing but chain>confirm, always making sure I was out of sledge and spark range, max range pokes and anti air pokes and I fared much better than usual. I don't think I lost to the Tager player that day with Hazama.
St1ckBuG Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Nothing against people who think you can win majors with a crap character (bottom 3 in this case), but how dense can you be? This is America. This is BB. Do you think you live in a world of anime where you can over-come what seem to be insurmountable odds by charging up your power-level for a couple episodes? Get real. You're Yamcha thinking you can beat Goku with some time in that hyperbolic time chamber. To win majors with low tier characters in a fighting game you need a system that has a lot of freedom... but you're talking about a fighting game where low tier characters have about as much freedom as a 6 year old on a leash: you can hop around, drool, and pick your nose as much as you want, and you can think you're enjoying yourself, but you're not going anywhere. Disclaimer: I'm not good at this game.
Airk Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) You're playing Tsubaki. How do you not notice? How can you not notice that two characters who are somewhat too good and three characters who are somewhat too bad is HILARIOUSLY BALANCED compared to a lot of fighting games that many people think are "very good"? :P Seriously. It's not a contest against games with characters with ToD combos blahblahstuff. Litchi and Bang are not THAT good, it's just that when it comes down to the bleedingest of edges, you need every advantage you can get. /shrug. EDIT: I mean, yeah, I still play the game, but it's not as good as lots of other options out there. If I had an MB community nearby, I'd be dumping 75% of the time I put into BB into MB because better game is better. I'd still play BB, but I'd get more satisfaction out of MB. Can't say I've played it; Not really interested in going to the effort. Can't be bothered to divide my attention. Seriously people, we could all be playing MvC3. Hahahaha. If you're playing this game AND arguing about it on a forum, you are doing it wrong, and need to find something that's actually fun for you. I question your sanity. Life is too short to waste on dumb stuff. Edited April 7, 2011 by Airk
A.X.I.S. Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Nothing against people who think you can win majors with a crap character (bottom 3 in this case), but how dense can you be? This is America. This is BB. Do you think you live in a world of anime where you can over-come what seem to be insurmountable odds by charging up your power-level for a couple episodes? Get real. You're Yamcha thinking you can beat Goku with some time in that hyperbolic time chamber. To win majors with low tier characters in a fighting game you need a system that has a lot of freedom... but you're talking about a fighting game where low tier characters have about as much freedom as a 6 year old on a leash: you can hop around, drool, and pick your nose as much as you want, and you can think you're enjoying yourself, but you're not going anywhere. Disclaimer: I'm not good at this game. Holy fucking shit. This post! This post is so fucking yes! Hey LK I got a question! Why do I still main Tager?
mAc Chaos Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 I don't disagree with you Stickbug, but I don't think anyone is trying to say anything about winning majors with low tier characters. For me, anyway, my goal isn't "win a major." If you want to say you're holding yourself back, you have to ask, "Holding yourself back from WHAT?" In which case, my objective is just to be as good at this game as I can, as a player, and be good with Hakumen. So using Hakumen or not using top tier doesn't hold me back from anything in that case. If I win a tournament or whatever as a result of getting good, then it's just a lucky bonus. Most people don't play the game with the mindset of "ALRIGHT I am going to win a major and every move I make is going to be aimed toward that goal" but of "I'm going to play this character I like and get as good as I can and see where that takes me." And I would totally be like Goku.
Zidane Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 How can you not notice that two characters who are somewhat too good and three characters who are somewhat too bad is HILARIOUSLY BALANCED compared to a lot of fighting games that many people think are "very good"? :P I guess CS1 is balanced. I mean, just because the company decided to release a balance patch to an already balanced game rather then making a new one makes complete sense. Wait, what?
LunaKage Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 To be completely honest I would rather fight Sagat in Vanilla SF4 with Sakura than fight Bang or Litchi as Noel in CS1.
Nini Heart Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 To be completely honest I would rather fight Sagat in Vanilla SF4 with Sakura than fight Bang or Litchi as Noel in CS1. This. Fucking this BB characters are fucking retarded. You win when you can get more retarded shit going on than your opponent. You have to play a retarded character to have fun in this game. Honestly, the balance in this game is much worse than two characters being too good and 3 characters being too bad. A shit load of characters have retarded, REPEATABLE STUFF, that even they don't have a fucking answer to. Reason i'm still playing this game, i'm playing a fucking broken character and abusing the shit out of her. Also, I believe MvC3 is more balanced than this game. There's a reason why a lot of us are playing it more than BB nowadays. BB is a fun game, but honestly, its balance is really bad.
Airk Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 I guess CS1 is balanced. I mean, just because the company decided to release a balance patch to an already balanced game rather then making a new one makes complete sense. Wait, what? No one is saying it's perfect, and all you need for improvement is imperfection, which we have in spades around here. Just because characters have "broken" stuff (Who are we talking about besides StupidKune? He's like the poster child that everyone seems to use when beating up on BB, and yet he's not really popular, and he's not really indicative of problems with the game as a whole.) doesn't mean the game is bad. Or should we start talking about the almighty Guilty Gear again? -_- P.S. I wasn't talking about SF4. Glad you enjoy getting cheaped out by one move more than getting beat by people who actually had to learn real combos though. Meh. To each their own, but I reiterate: IF you don't LIKE the game, then stop playing it, stop whining about it, GTFO and do something you enjoy. The only failure in that arrangement is you.
Lord Knight Posted April 7, 2011 Author Posted April 7, 2011 Zidane did his time, don't worry lol. Both in wasting his time coming up with stupid optimized Hazama combos and being banned, haha. I don't disagree with you Stickbug, but I don't think anyone is trying to say anything about winning majors with low tier characters. For me, anyway, my goal isn't "win a major." If you want to say you're holding yourself back, you have to ask, "Holding yourself back from WHAT?" In which case, my objective is just to be as good at this game as I can, as a player, and be good with Hakumen. So using Hakumen or not using top tier doesn't hold me back from anything in that case. If I win a tournament or whatever as a result of getting good, then it's just a lucky bonus. Most people don't play the game with the mindset of "ALRIGHT I am going to win a major and every move I make is going to be aimed toward that goal" but of "I'm going to play this character I like and get as good as I can and see where that takes me." And I would totally be like Goku. This is good. But I think a lot of people's goals are to win. Honsetly CS1 is pretty good balance considering there's only 4 weak characters (relative to the cast).
LunaKage Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 I'd still like to point out that I'm on the BB side of the argument, but I play a shit character that has a bad matchup against TAGER of all characters, so I'm a little Jaded on CS1. I'm sure if I played a mid tier character I wouldn't be nearly as pissed off everytime I sat down at an event and saw my opponent pick Ragna, or Hazama, or anyone really. Anyways I guess I should get back onto the thread's topic. LK how do you feel about Litchi in CS2? Are you thinking of picking up a sub? Do you think its better to play multiple characters? Do you prefer Asian women over the rest like most weeabos like myself do?
Lord Knight Posted April 7, 2011 Author Posted April 7, 2011 I always play subs. I'm going to keep playing Taokaka, Jin and Hazama. . . probably going to pick up Rachel again. I'm probably going to pick up Platinum too probably. I'll keep playing Litchi - she's still strong enough for me to play her and she still has cool, fun looking stuff. I don't really like the jBCB combo part, that's a little boring. I'm also glad that they changed her enough that people can (finally) move on from CT style and move on with the character (or switch - I don't care). . . .I like women.
Delrian Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Anyways I guess I should get back onto the thread's topic. Do you prefer Asian women over the rest like most weeabos like myself do? ...Gameplay related questions only?
Nini Heart Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 . . .I like women. Gdlk. Don't be picky like this guy. Beware of the massive trolling in that thread lol.
Rhiya Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 How can you not notice that two characters who are somewhat too good and three characters who are somewhat too bad is HILARIOUSLY BALANCED compared to a lot of fighting games that many people think are "very good"? :P I don't think you understand just how stupidly good Litchi and Bang are, especially in comparison to the bottom tiers. Can't say I've played it; Not really interested in going to the effort. Can't be bothered to divide my attention. You should try MB. The system is unique, very freeform in C and H moon (reverse beat ftw), and, well, it's just fucking fun
A.X.I.S. Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Yo LK you dodging my question dawg! I am gonna purpetrate yo home and take Litchi away. Do you think Tager is better in CS2? I want to hear your spin on it.
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