[CS2] Noel Changelog Loketest 1-5

[LunaKage]

I'm under the impression that 5C -> 2C is not a frame-trap at all, but is solid under normal block. Under instant-blocking, it is a frame trap... but under normal block it is something IMO better.

Frame traps can be punished by Reversal Supers and Mashing Hakumen Counters. 5C -> 2C under normal block MUST be blocked correctly. Its solid, your opponent cannot do anything. It will still beat people who jump (can't hold up and down at the same time), but it won't counter-hit people who mash 4AAAAA or 4BC BC BC BC.

At first I thought the same thing, but most of my victories against scrubs online are because I caught them with 2C when they were crouching. The first hit may be solid, but I've had plenty of my friends tell me that "I failed to IB" when I hit them with 5C(blocked) > 2C(Hit crouching). I'll do some tests, I'm about 70% sure I'm right in my assumption though.

Alright Luna, I may have done a small dance to this new finding. Won't lie.

Rejoice my brother, we have options.

[SkyKing]

Could it be a trap if they IB'ed 5C and tried to do something during the 2C? I haven't really tried options for IB 5C for each character's options.

[AcoTan]

Her combo routes in general are just way more limited with no drive 5c jc, nerfed spring raid, changes to the way 22b/c combo, and 5d covering somewhere close to half of the distance it does current in CS.

Wait. d.5C is not jump cancelable anymore?

Also, with the Spring Raid nerf, what do you guys think about drive ender being shorter for midscreen combos?

[Hellmonkey]

correct, and she will use bloom trigger which will knock them down now.

[Mizzet]

Even with the spring raid nerf and d.5c not being jc'able, I'm confident that new stuff can be found, just let me get my hands on CS2 lol.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Mizzet

[LunaKage]

Just tried out something:

3C > 22C > 66C > 22B > 662B > 6C > j.D > d.6D > d.5C > d.6B > 236D

Did 3.5k midscreen, its not as godly as a haida loop, but it could be a good starter combo before we find out crazy shit.

Also, regarding 5C > 2C as a frame trap. If you input the gatling as fast as you can it will be solid, however you can delay the 5C slightly, which will cause a big enough gap for 2C.

So while it's not a braindead Frame trap, it's still possible without IB.

[AcoTan]

Cool, less drive dependant. I'm definitely digging her new normals, I sure miss them. Hopefully we can still gain good meter from shorter drive strings.

[Runis]

edit: my bad wasn't looking at the combo properly,

Luna, You can do 22BC to get extra damage on the 22B portion. every little bit helps.

Also, I have an idea for a 4-5k'ish fake haida that does not use 22C.

Not gonna post it though, just in case it doesn't quite work out (Like d.6C against a downed opponent into 22BBBB shenanigans doesn't work)

Edited November 22, 2010 by Runis

[Bolverk-GTM]

Just tried out something:

3C > 22C > 66C > 22B > 662B > 6C > j.D > d.6D > d.5C > d.6B > 236D

Did 3.5k midscreen, its not as godly as a haida loop, but it could be a good starter combo before we find out crazy shit.

Also, regarding 5C > 2C as a frame trap. If you input the gatling as fast as you can it will be solid, however you can delay the 5C slightly, which will cause a big enough gap for 2C.

So while it's not a braindead Frame trap, it's still possible without IB.

Have I ever told you that I love you? You spared me a 20 mile trip to Press Start to fire up CS and start trying to find stuff that might work in CS2 still. Now I get to stay home tonight instead of going and testing stuff out.

[LunaKage]

Have I ever told you that I love you? You spared me a 20 mile trip to Press Start to fire up CS and start trying to find stuff that might work in CS2 still. Now I get to stay home tonight instead of going and testing stuff out.

lol thanks?

This is one of the reasons I'm here after all.

[Mizzet]

Just tried out something:

3C > 22C > 66C > 22B > 662B > 6C > j.D > d.6D > d.5C > d.6B > 236D

Did 3.5k midscreen, its not as godly as a haida loop, but it could be a good starter combo before we find out crazy shit.

Something incredibly basic that should still work. Works from 6b too for [3316]

3c 22bc 66c 236a 66c j.d 6d 6b 5c 6c 623d [3929]

Although d.6c has a tendency to not connect cleanly on airbourne people, for some reason that drive sequence (6d 6b 5c) puts afaik everyone at a position that allows it to connect nicely. I don't know how useful trying to find replacement combos now is though, are any normal/drive move properties being changed?

Edited November 22, 2010 by Mizzet

[LunaKage]

Something incredibly basic that should still work. Works from 6b too for [3316]

3c 22bc 66c 236a 66c j.d 6d 6b 5c 6c 623d [3929]

Although d.6c has a tendency to not connect cleanly on airbourne people, for some reason that drive sequence (6d 6b 5c) puts afaik everyone at a position that allows it to connect nicely. I don't know how useful trying to find replacement combos now is though, are any normal/drive move properties being changed?

I'm not entirely sure, that combo is definitely strange, in a good way though. I can't wait to get my hands on the game to start experimenting, hell, the damage our "CS2 possible" combos do may still be different in CS2, we wont know until we see for ourselves.

[MiraclePizza]

At first I thought the same thing, but most of my victories against scrubs online are because I caught them with 2C when they were crouching. The first hit may be solid, but I've had plenty of my friends tell me that "I failed to IB" when I hit them with 5C(blocked) > 2C(Hit crouching). I'll do some tests, I'm about 70% sure I'm right in my assumption though.

5C 2C is airtight even if you're only close enough for the 2nd hit of 2C to make contact. What most likely happened is that they blocked the 5C crouching and didn't attempt to block the 2C crouching. While this game may have autoblock for continuous blockstun, you'll still unblock if you block the wrong way (obviously) but you can also get unblocked by a low if you weren't crouching (read: not just crouch blocking).

So what happens in the end is that if you blocked 5C crouching and weren't holding 1, 2, or 3 by the time the 2C came out, you'll get hit by 2C while still stuck in crouching state. The same logic applies if you were standing as well, but that situation is already more intuitive so that definitely doesn't need any explanation. Just know that it's impossible to get hit by 2C in crouching state if you blocked the 5C standing and vice versa.

It looks really wierd because even though you'll be crouching you'll still see the yellow exclamation mark as if you tried to block crouching... while already crouching, but if you look at it the way I explained it, it does make sense in the sense that you technically blocked wrong and thus getting the exclamation mark to appear.

On a different note, I think it's time to start practicing those 22B 6D combos

Edited November 22, 2010 by MiraclePizza

[Runis]

As long as they don't same move prorate 22B, I have a psuedo haida loop that might work, and if the 6C(2) also doesn't same move prorate, we got nasty nasty corner game.

[LunaKage]

Snip

Already tested out and clarified what happened, thanks for the added info though :3

[MiraclePizza]

I actually didn't know how that whole "fuzzy low" thing worked until I ran the tests with Noel yesterday. Always did seem wierd that you'd somehow fail to low block while crouching since the exclamation mark should only appear if you're trying to block at all in the first place. At least that's not a mystery to me anymore lol.

[dragontamer]

Fuzzy low is soooo good. 2C (1) -> 2C (2) -> !!! crouching state!! -> 3C :-)

[dragontamer]

Wait, do we still have the 2C -> 5C reverse gatling?

So... 5A -> 6A -> 5B -> 2B -> 6A -> 5B -> 2C -> 5C -> 6B -> 3C is a valid blockstring now?

[LunaKage]

Wait, do we still have the 2C -> 5C reverse gatling?

So... 5A -> 6A -> 5B -> 2B -> 6A -> 5B -> 2C -> 5C -> 6B -> 3C is a valid blockstring now?

Assuming 6B can gatling off of the second 5C(or rather the 5C after the 2C) this can be very valid. I can't wait to try out new blockstrings. Here's to hoping 2C > 5C becomes a frame trap.

[dragontamer]

Assuming 6B can gatling off of the second 5C(or rather the 5C after the 2C) this can be very valid. I can't wait to try out new blockstrings. Here's to hoping 2C > 5C becomes a frame trap.

Its a -4 or -3 frame hole. 2C isn't very meaty and 5C is very quick, so its not going to be a frame-trap on normal block. On instant block however, there's a 1 / 2 frame hole. On the other hand, Instant-block has been nurfed in Loketest 5 so its likely that the blockstring is solid.

[LunaKage]

Its a -4 or -3 frame hole. 2C isn't very meaty and 5C is very quick, so its not going to be a frame-trap on normal block. On instant block however, there's a 1 / 2 frame hole. On the other hand, Instant-block has been nurfed in Loketest 5 so its likely that the blockstring is solid.

True, it could at least be a decent "get the hell outta there" string, unless the buffs to optic barrel make it useable to continue pressure, that would make my day.

[dragontamer]

True, it could at least be a decent "get the hell outta there" string, unless the buffs to optic barrel make it useable to continue pressure, that would make my day.

Blah -> 5C -> 74

I'm really liking the buffs to our gatling strings. This alone makes me happy.

[LunaKage]

Blah -> 5C -> 74

I'm really liking the buffs to our gatling strings.

My spirits soar everytime I'm reminded that 5C is jc'able on block. She's looking so much better now that I may have to get used to not getting stuffed out of normals soon. *fingers crossed*

[Setsuna]

5C > 6B ?

Does that mean i can follow up with 3C and then proceed with whatever combo from that now ?

[dragontamer]

5C > 6B ?

Does that mean i can follow up with 3C and then proceed with whatever combo from that now ?

While 6B looks faster (it could have been a video encoding error however...), I don't think its fast enough to combo from 5C. Its more of a reset (if they were hit) or a blockstring (to force them to start thinking from 5C, now that there's a 2C / 6B mixup at 5C)