Stellarcircle5 Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 I can't tell if you're making fun of me or emphasizing my point... -cry- xD Balancing to low tier rather than to an agreeable midpoint just sounds in bad taste. Nah man, I just like to pile on the sarcasm. I agree with everything you're saying. I'm all for the weaker characters being better, but the method that Arcsys is using to do so is absurd.
Soviet Bear Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 You won't be downloading 'this patch' either way.. because they're gonna sell it as a whole new game (most likely). If that happens, I'm most likely gonna drop out of the game completely. I can't really afford a yearly subscription to two fighting game series (since they'll likely pull the same thing with Xrd). Not to mention it'll kill the small local scene I have here. I kinda get it when they had to do it in the PS2 era, but it's really pushing it these days. I love ASW, but my wallet and I can only tolerate so much. They could at least make it a DLC expansion or something.
SoWL Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 I've still got my money on 2.0 being a patch, since if it was going to be sold as a separate game, they would've picked a more marketable name for it (as illustrated by CS2). That, and I've still got some faith in humanity.
Luminos564 Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 I've still got my money on 2.0 being a patch, since if it was going to be sold as a separate game, they would've picked a more marketable name for it (as illustrated by CS2). That, and I've still got some faith in humanity. I'd be careful about that last one. Time and again has proven that when it comes to making money, companies will do anything to get your big bucks now rather than smaller quantities over time. And honestly, I am more inclined to believe we have another BB Extend on our hands since they're adding in characters this time and I doubt ASW is gonna fork them over for free. Of course, if they are going the Extend route, I would need them to add a bunch more content than just Celica and dear Lamb-chops. And fix the damn issues with audio, grammar etc. The volume spikes are just plain insulting at times. Certainly though, nothing is set in stone. But I wouldn't place my faith on ASW too much. Just my 2 cents really.
redsilversnake Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 And honestly, I am more inclined to believe we have another BB Extend on our hands since they're adding in characters this time and I doubt ASW is gonna fork them over for free. CS2 added Platinum, though, she was just DLC after the console patch.
Myoro Posted September 4, 2014 Posted September 4, 2014 I've still got my money on 2.0 being a patch, since if it was going to be sold as a separate game, they would've picked a more marketable name for it (as illustrated by CS2). That, and I've still got some faith in humanity. Have we met? Anyhow on the point of everyone getting nerfed or buffed, I'd lean on the side of buffs. I'd say Relius is a good point of how strong every character should be. Good in some situations weak in others, has weaknesses but can compensate for them in various ways. Most characters would do well to have one thing that's borderline broken, at least one thing that they're crap at, and have a good general set of tools. Relish has wonderful pressure, but cruddy mix-up, great Oki, but low max damage, good confirms but bad defense. He also has a good effort/success balance. I feel like if they didn't hurt valk's wolf meter too much and just took his pressure down a notch, while preserving his stellar mix-up and the okayish reward it reaped, he would have been another fine example.
MoneyD90 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Most of the loke changes seem to make perfect sense to me from a balance perspective. Sorry but if things like litchi gets hit during staff launch and gets to keep it makes sense, or valk keeping full unseeable wolf mixup, OR even Hazama just chaining around the screen without even thinking. Then you are crazy good sir.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 If you think nerfing those three while nerfing every other character is in good balance, you... I can't even say anything. Dont tunnel vision on the higher tiers, cuz lower tiers got wrecked as well.
Syklone Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 They nerfed taeger for gods sake. This isn't balance and you all know it. It's nerf edition and I already saw how FG's turn out when you try to Nerf your way to balance. See street fighter 4: Arcade Edition
Stellarcircle5 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Most of the loke changes seem to make perfect sense to me from a balance perspective. Sorry but if things like litchi gets hit during staff launch and gets to keep it makes sense, or valk keeping full unseeable wolf mixup, OR even Hazama just chaining around the screen without even thinking. Then you are crazy good sir. So what you're saying is you want them to get rid of what literally makes the character. Sounds like a plan. I absolutely agree with you that characters like Litchi, Valk, and Hazama have things about them that are questionable (less so in 1.1), but removing their tools that set their game plan in stone is the last thing that should be done. You have to look at this from a gameplay design perspective as well.
Syklone Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 So what you're saying is you want them to get rid of what literally makes the character. Sounds like a plan. I for one don't mind valk having the retarded mixups as long as they don't do massive damage, then it's cool.
TeeJay Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Most of the loke changes seem to make perfect sense to me from a balance perspective. Sorry but if things like litchi gets hit during staff launch and gets to keep it makes sense, or valk keeping full unseeable wolf mixup, OR even Hazama just chaining around the screen without even thinking. Then you are crazy good sir. i think Litchi has always had that iirc--I should be confident since I played fraud Litchi since CT. She already loses DP without staff and a ton of other options. It's other stuff that can break characters. In CS1, Litchi's 6D could stuff Ragna's Carnage Scissors, which is mad scary.
Blackwing55 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 I don't get why they're nerfing Relius's 3C his pressure is already pretty bad. Instead they should be buffing it by having his 2C and 3C jump cancelled on guard. Ignis guage takes to much off of every use too so it's pretty easy to just sit there till it runs out or until you want to punish it at the weak points. I also think Hazama will get neutral buffs since his neutral game is terrible with out his chains 40 frames recovery while in the air 28 while grounded? They should knock off the amount of recovery on some of his moves and make more jump cancellable if they're neutering him like that. OD is op too as much as I welcome GCOD because I always use OD instead of burst that much damage is a bit much. I would rather work for all my damage like now then have easy combo's with huge damage like ragna. I really hate it when I try and OD and it bursts because of a stray 5A or I did it a fraction of a frame to early.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 His pressure is really good, its his mixup that's bad. Its all based around multiple simple mixups that try to make. Anyway, I'm content as long as the 3C stays the same. Nerf other things that make people upset, like how they already did away with the corner only fuzzy guard by reducing j.B's attack level. Anyway, I feel that barrier pushback kills too many characters as it is now. My character excluded, a lot of people get shut out almost instantly when barrier is brought to the field. When bad pressure characters are forced to go with even more unsafe options, its a sad day. Also, while i doubt this would get put in, it would be nice to have an extended buffer for instant blocking while online. Its what, 5f right now? Maybe 1 or 2 frames more would make online less of a pain. Anyway, none of those were really a huge thing, so I guess I'll end here.
Airk Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 So what you're saying is you want them to get rid of what literally makes the character. Sounds like a plan.You highlighted the wrong words. Do we really need to play this game? You are exaggerating.It's really pretty simple. Makoto has survived several games and is not AWFUL. Therefore, even if other characters are nerfed to her level (Which, I should point out, I don't see happening here. I see people panicing and overstating how much impact these changes have) they would still not be awful.Exaggeration FTL.
Myoro Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 You highlighted the wrong words. Do we really need to play this game? You are exaggerating. It's really pretty simple. Makoto has survived several games and is not AWFUL. Therefore, even if other characters are nerfed to her level (Which, I should point out, I don't see happening here. I see people panicing and overstating how much impact these changes have) they would still not be awful. Exaggeration FTL. But Airk, Makoto is awful. Her Gameplay thread is titled "Makoto-level despair" for goodness sake. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a single Makoto who's content where she is. EDIT: err, rather it was called that. It's now called "When's 2.0" which sorta reflects the same sentiment.
Blackwing55 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Makoto was good until 1.1 I subbed her forever thought she was good 1.1 came so did dropping her. Now i sub Ragna.
Lucalibur Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 You highlighted the wrong words. Do we really need to play this game? You are exaggerating. It's really pretty simple. Makoto has survived several games and is not AWFUL. Therefore, even if other characters are nerfed to her level (Which, I should point out, I don't see happening here. I see people panicing and overstating how much impact these changes have) they would still not be awful. Exaggeration FTL. How about we NOT nerf anyone and instead buff low tiers so that they're comparable in strength and more enjoyable to use? I don't know about you guys, but I prefer games where characters are strong and fun to use rather than everyone being Makoto tier.
swordsman09 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 Compared to pretty much everyone else in the game, Makoto IS awful. I have no idea how she survived the games that she did. Saying an awful character can be used and saying an awful character isn't awful are 2 different things. Makoto was good until 1.1 I subbed her forever thought she was good 1.1 came so did dropping her. She wasn't that much better in 1.0 TBH. In fact, some of the changes in 1.1 actually made her better in some ways.
Arc Raizen Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 But Airk, Makoto is awful. Her Gameplay thread is titled "Makoto-level despair" for goodness sake. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a single Makoto who's content where she is. EDIT: err, rather it was called that. It's now called "When's 2.0" which sorta reflects the same sentiment. I believe it used to be called "Bottom-Tier Despair" during 1.0, then "Makoto-Tier Despair" in 1.1, but yeah...its not pretty. I don't think you can argue that a character with quite possibly 0 favorable match-ups in a cast of 28 characters isn't "awful." Not completely unplayable, "why even bother" bad, but clearly bottom of the barrel comparatively, especially to the top-tiers. The little we got from the loketest didn't seem promising either (read as: absolutely terrifying). I would much rather see characters balanced around mid-B to maybe low-A tier rather than everyone brought to high-A and up. As I see it right now, high-tier characters just do too well on too many fronts and don't have to work as hard to get as much as low-tier characters and/or get WAY more comparatively when both work as hard as that character can (within reason). Bringing everyone to low-tier ends up making matches more about sneaking in random 5A starter combos for 1.2k and becoming a battle of attrition because either your best-case scenario is extremely difficult or too risky to get to (or force your opponent into) or your even best output in an average-case scenario just isn't enough to make the risk of getting to execute it or completing the execution worthwhile. This can easily force your hand and make going for the worst-case/minimal damage in an average-case situation favorable just because you're at least guaranteed something. (For example: when I play Makoto, at least half the damage I do is from me sitting around and hitting a random 2A counter hit and doing a tiny follow-up rather than trying to wait for a more advantageous situation or risk going for more because I fear that if I try to, I will have thrown away too much damage to the opponent or myself while waiting for it and not getting enough payoff from it to make NOT doing that 2A combo worth it.) If instead the characters are all brought to a level where there is appropriate risk/reward in most cases for them, you would likely see better gameplay with characters willing to take more risks to get combos, damage and force situations that uniquely benefit their character and playstyle and actually see high-level combos and execution that show what each character is about because each character can actually afford to be themselves and actually going for these things is worthwhile, entertaining and reliably fun. Compared to pretty much everyone else in the game, Makoto IS awful. I have no idea how she survived the games that she did. Saying an awful character can be used ans saying an awful character isn't awful are 2 different things. She wasn't that much better in 1.0 TBH. In fact, some of the changes in 1.1 actually made her better in some ways. As a slight note, I have made an extensive list of Makoto's combos from 1.0 with 1.1 variants and you'd be hard pressed to find any combo with worthwhile change in 1.1 and the vast majority of combos lose damage, whether its 20 damage or 400.
MoneyD90 Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 I'm not saying everyone needs to be Makoto lvl as her current 1.1 is nothing llike she was when she first came out. However, they seem to be doing some much needed changes to characters drives, game play and just overall fixing some of the things that required little effort but gave too much reward or just made you think wtf?? Ie: Azrael having a dp with his tool set is just wrong.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 I'd say a good point to try and bring people either up or down to is the level of Jin. He was good in 1.0, got some small nerfs in 1.1, but was still balanced and better than he was in Ex. I think the fact that his damage went UP in a game where average damage was lowered, but he's not broken ass OP or trash tier.
Errol Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 But Airk, Makoto is awful. Her Gameplay thread is titled "Makoto-level despair" for goodness sake. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a single Makoto who's content where she is. EDIT: err, rather it was called that. It's now called "When's 2.0" which sorta reflects the same sentiment. makoto forums are a waste of space.
mAc Chaos Posted September 5, 2014 Posted September 5, 2014 I'd rather everybody have something ridiculous so they can go ham equally than the game turned into a cripple simulator.
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