TD Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Makoto does not necessarily need any more input changes at this point.
Airk Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 What if they changed the inputs on Cosmic Ray and Lander blow? That could make her pretty fierce. Maybe leave Lander Blow as is and make Cosmic Ray usable normally. But I'm not a Makoto expert, so...
StylisH Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 Hmm...How is Makoto not well designed for rushdown? What tools could/should they give her to boost her rushdown game without breaking her or changing her playstyle completely? Granted her drive isn't specifically designed for rushdown (but it is really fun and satisfying to wail on people with lvl3 punches and supers). She does however have other characteristics that make her a "rushdown character." The biggest thing is her run speed (fastest in the game) combined with a decent poke, which means you can be very aggressive by running at your opponent quickly and forcing them to react rather than think. That's really all you need to control the pace of the match and not give your opponent time to think/breathe (eg. rush them down). The only tools I can think of to make her better at "rushdown" (as opposed to generic buffs like more damage, better mixup) would be to give her ways to deal with zoning/projectiles. Like if she had Akatsuki's Blitz Shield, Fox's Reflector from SSB, or fucking Growler Field. But then again giving Makoto a braindead way to deal with zoning would probably make her instant S Tier imo. I would love to see Makoto better oki and A Astral Vision with projectile invul, but that may be asking too much. I'm just glad Bullet got Miqulet Capture invul and brake.
Dark Ranger88 Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 What if they changed the inputs on Cosmic Ray and Lander blow? That could make her pretty fierce. Maybe leave Lander Blow as is and make Cosmic Ray usable normally. But I'm not a Makoto expert, so... Well changing the inputs wouldn't really do anything, they aren't really that difficult at all. Lander Blow: Level 3 Lander Blow is +5 on block, which is great. However you can only do it after Lunatic Upper, making it highly telegraphed. Stand alone Lander Blow would fix this, plus it has a 27 frame startup, making it jumpable/mashable. Cosmic Ray: You can do Cosmic Ray after Asteroid Vision almost instantly so there is no real need to give that a stand alone command. Cosmic Ray is -1 (lvl 2) or even on block (lvl 3). So it can't really be used for pressure unless you give it more frame advantage. Although it can give you relative advantage against some characters with slow jabs.
Qu_Ane Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 There's nothing WRONG with playing "simple"; EVERYONE starts by playing simple. And you can win with simple stuff - up to a point. But sooner or later, you're going to think "Gee, I wish I had a better way out of that pressure!" or "Boy, if I had cancelled that move, maybe I wouldn't have taken 5k damage" or the like, and you'll start adding the more advanced mechanics to your game. Of course, picking the absolute nutso top tier character allows you to avoid that for longer, but at the very least, you're going to need to occasionally use Superball as a reversal, since you don't have any other options there, and anyone who knows the matchup can deal with teleport. And a lot of this stuff is going to be way less effective in the next version, so there will be incentive to step up your game. Gotcha. I've found myself thinking those things before, now that I think about it. I guess I should just fight more people and see how I feel about it then. It's not about playing "simple." Hakumen is a simple character. But you still would use every tool you can to your advantage. What you're talking about is just wasting your opportunities, because each time you don't use one of those extra options when you could have is giving the opponent a chance to beat you when they might have lost instead. And you can bet that as you climb the ladder of opponent's skill that they'll be using those things against you too, so it's like an arms race. You might be able to win against some people without using all of your options, but that's just selling yourself short for when it really matters against a player that's going to push you to your limit. Then I guess I'm just not all that high level. lol
StylisH Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 Gotcha. I've found myself thinking those things before, now that I think about it. I guess I should just fight more people and see how I feel about it then. Then I guess I'm just not all that high level. lol Trial by fire is usually the best way to learn in the FGC
Airk Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 Well changing the inputs wouldn't really do anything, they aren't really that difficult at all. I assumed the implication was 'Make them not Asteroid Vision followups'. Which I think would make Lander Blow too good. and yeah, I guess Cosmic Ray would need to be +1 or something. Still, when you look at characters like Jin who are all "Yeah, I have three moves that are plus and a ton of other ways to make things safe and did I mention my 5C can be jump cancelled on block?" and you sortof scratch your head and go "This is okay for a character with all of Jin's tools, but Makoto gets nothing that's plus unless it's a weird followup or has 37 frames of startup(LOL 3C as 'pressure reset')."
Errol Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 you don't need to have stuff that is plus on block to reset pressure. most pressure resets are designed to be mashable anyway. pressure reset after a negative move is because of the threat of a frame trap. makoto got an additional spot she can frame trap on the end of every single block string because lvl 2 Ds are special cancelable now.
Moy_X7 Posted March 24, 2015 Posted March 24, 2015 "I don't care if you're +20 on block, I'm still swingin'" Ah, memories.
Dark Ranger88 Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 you don't need to have stuff that is plus on block to reset pressure. most pressure resets are designed to be mashable anyway. pressure reset after a negative move is because of the threat of a frame trap. makoto got an additional spot she can frame trap on the end of every single block string because lvl 2 Ds are special cancelable now. Well some people watch your character and can recognize when you come to a complete stop, letting them know when they can jump/mash. For that kind of pressure to work you have to either have A.) A move with very quick recovery frames or B.) The ability to chain into another normal late into your recovery frames in order to bait and punish mashing. This can limit your pressure resets to 2A and 2B usually, whereas + moves (especially specials) can be used after every normal. If you use +frame moves to reset it also looks like your character is always doing something, so your opponent can't use the obvious cue of your character coming to a complete stop.
chzchan Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 So how did they fix her. Variety of combo routes introduced and also more damage thanks to the new routes. This is on top of the level 2 cancellability thing. At least from what I have seen Goro do, the change to space counter has allowed room for a lot of gimmick creativity.
StylisH Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 Variety of combo routes introduced and also more damage thanks to the new routes. This is on top of the level 2 cancellability thing. At least from what I have seen Goro do, the change to space counter has allowed room for a lot of gimmick creativity. Did they boost her neutral at all? Aside from her counter that is.
Dreiko Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 Did they boost her neutral at all? Aside from her counter that is. jCC got a significant buff, it cancels into the second hit much faster than before and it is active for ages so it's a pretty amazing jump-in now. Also she gets to cancel j2C into stuff (such as jC) on block/hit which makes the move quite usable now. Beyond those. Cosmic Ray being even means she has a forward dashing move which can sort of allow her to get in better than she used to before, though ultimately not as many changes happened outside of those. Basically her combos being much better and more varied means she gets more rewards for getting in now and they're significant enough rewards to really help her.
StylisH Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 jCC got a significant buff, it cancels into the second hit much faster than before and it is active for ages so it's a pretty amazing jump-in now. Also she gets to cancel j2C into stuff (such as jC) on block/hit which makes the move quite usable now. Beyond those. Cosmic Ray being even means she has a forward dashing move which can sort of allow her to get in better than she used to before, though ultimately not as many changes happened outside of those. Basically her combos being much better and more varied means she gets more rewards for getting in now and they're significant enough rewards to really help her. Eh, I guess it would be difficult to go beyond that without her being over the top. Her normals are pretty good in the footsie game as is, and that dash speed is ridiculous.
Tong Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 BlazBlue just needs new and more interesting mechanics/systems already. I dont think there's anything wrong with CP 2.0, the game looks fairly balanced to me, but even when good balancing is achieved there is still the feeling that... the game is essentially the same and plays just like the previous version. I could've been easily called CP 1.2. I still believe we're going to get BB4 this year and I really hope they step the game up by adding the depth BB needs.
Narroo Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 BlazBlue just needs new and more interesting mechanics/systems already. I dont think there's anything wrong with CP 2.0, the game looks fairly balanced to me, but even when good balancing is achieved there is still the feeling that... the game is essentially the same and plays just like the previous version. I could've been easily called CP 1.2. I still believe we're going to get BB4 this year and I really hope they step the game up by adding the depth BB needs. The main issue really is the implementation; as eeveryone has said, the characters have become a bit flat. Sytem mechanics won't help that.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 You make a game that centers around the gimmicks of characters and then you nerf those gimmicks to hell and back. Clearly Mori knows what the hell he's doing. Its times like this that make me wish we were back in CSEX days, where everyone was balanced and interesting.
Dreiko Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 Eh, I guess it would be difficult to go beyond that without her being over the top. Her normals are pretty good in the footsie game as is, and that dash speed is ridiculous. I saw her do GCOD>2A into a 5.2k combo so, yes, you're right. :P https://youtu.be/Vaw7ngXoUlM?t=49m36s Enjoy~
Ried Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 What do words like fun and interesting entail for the people here? Those can mean anything really, and they're rarely ever elaborated on when used in this context. It'd be nice to sometimes see the 'whys' that lie behind the blanketing disappointment if anyone wanted to expound on them. Also did Makoto and Tsubaki not make the everyone cut in Extend? Cause that would sound about right. Makoto does look really hype in CPE though; still really curious about all of the applications for the new re-standing meterlessly combo-able space counter. Can't wait to test things out. D(2) special cancels weren't a change I was expecting, but a lot of new possibilities flow from it, so it's interesting I guess. A little sad 2D(1) tech time seems shorter, but whatever. New Asteroid Vision trajectory also looks nice. Always something I'm happy to see. Still kinda greedily wish they'd let her retain air-actions from it like back in CSExtend, but AV~B was super sad back then anyway. Maybe not every character is looking up as much as the squirrel, but personally I'm really excited for CPE, it's looking great to me, at least from way over here in the bleachers. https://youtu.be/Vaw7ngXoUlM?t=49m36s Enjoy~ It took a hard read, 100 meter, and OD with less than 10% life left to do not all that absurd damage, but I mean, yeah, I enjoyed Goro dunking Dora. Cause that's not how most of that set went iirc.
Dreiko Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 The set was an hour long so it went back and forth. 10-7 or something I believe. Also Bang is high tier in this version so that's not something Makoto has to feel bad about lol. He's pretty unanimously A tier I believe. And I don't know how much of a "hard read" it is to assume Bang will 2B after his close range blocked 5B. I mean, it's not a certainty but if Bang doesn't try to do that out of fear that Makoto can do this to him then he will be sacrificing too much pressure (which is a different sort of win for Makoto) so the wisdom goes with making the read in that situation. I think the reward is worth the risk lol. You can see Dora just yolo wakeup OD and rely on the frkz mixups to make something happen, with mixed results. I think Makoto's approach is much more solid than that.
chzchan Posted March 25, 2015 Posted March 25, 2015 Is what allowed hitbox data to be extracted from the 360 versions of BBCS going to carry over to the new XBOX version of BBCPE so that the data will finally be available? Does anyone know what the flaw was that made the data obtainable?
StylisH Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 I saw her do GCOD>2A into a 5.2k combo so, yes, you're right. :P https://youtu.be/Vaw7ngXoUlM?t=49m36s Enjoy~ Goro is OP
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