[CS2] Noel Changelog Loketest 1-5

[Danny Schme]

I'm resisting doing the "holy shit Noel isn't ass" dance until I see this actually be the case when BBCS2 hits arcades. Loketest hopes and dreams are looking quite nice though, for the time being.

[LunaKage]

I'm resisting doing the "holy shit Noel isn't ass" dance until I see this actually be the case when BBCS2 hits arcades. Loketest hopes and dreams are looking quite nice though, for the time being.

If you're resisting you are a better man than I am. I've already started talking trash in the Michigan thread. XBL General thread will follow soon enough.

[Hellmonkey]

translated by Hiago over at the makoto boards (since there was a bit of makoto info along with this), discuss

I'm fairly sure whoever was saying Noel is strong just saw those few positives, and doesn't realize that Noel took some pretty major hits as well.

I was reading some of the responses from Noel players who went to the loketest, and this is what I gathered from them.

The changes to her air normals were reported to be almost unnoticeable, except j.a was slightly stronger as an antiair which it is already decent as. Her combo routes in general are just way more limited with no drive 5c jc, nerfed spring raid, changes to the way 22b/c combo, and 5d covering somewhere close to half of the distance it does current in CS.

They did a good job to nerf drive mashing pretty well, but she is still going to struggle with range possibly even more than CS since her drives actually did have fairly big hitboxes while the range on her normals are basically all the same except 5c which doesn't move her forward. 6A being buffed to hit crouching opponents is an amazingly good change, although I have a strong feeling people will overestimate it's value at first because it was so good in CT, before 6C got crazy nerfed, and now that her combo routes and damage are hurting in CS2 this may not end up helping her all that much. I don't see the new gatlings making that huge of a difference in how effective she will be able to run her offense, since getting in and staying in is still going to be a chore with still no real tools particularly useful at it, and especially with a reduced threat of throws due to her not even being able to combo off them midscreen, blocking against Noel is not going to be very scary at all.

j4D is probably the one major buff that stands out as a possible game changer for Noel, but apparently it can't be made ambiguous by hitting through a player to cross up or anything, so it will be fairly straightforward for other characters to learn how to deal with it, from the information so far. This change should actually help her get in on the opponent, so hopefully it turns out usable.

Some other changes that aren't all fully described, including a buff to optic barrel which supposedly makes it slightly better and allows it to be used in a few combos, but really didn't change it's use whole lot. 5B is supposed to hit lower, but someone was testing and it was losing at the tip to jin's 2a and it seems for now like it won't be so hugely improved to deal with most of the other chars better normals from that close-mid range.

I don't know where anyone got the idea that her damage increased in any way from what I read. It seems harder to combo and there will be more situations that meter must be spent to get some decent damage.

So overall, just from the info I've read, it is my opinion that she'll rely a lot more on her normals rather than having to gamble on drives to catch people's moves luckily, which is a very much needed change. The new gatlings and other positive changes to her normal set will definitely make it the more viable choice, but I think she will still have some other major issues with getting in, staying in, and dealing her damage, especially if she ends up still unable to combo meterless from a midscreen throw.

The only real high damage (4k+ level) I saw reported was from corner combos, which she can already easily surpass, she will struggle mostly in midscreen and reaching the opponent.

[Raptor]

At this point, I'm just glad I can now put trust into her normals again. Having a decent drive with crap normals produced some VERY bad habbits during my training.

[Runis]

6A hitting crouchers changes her abare totally. 5A is 5 frames, which means that we don't have to always use 5A 5B 5C 2C as a block string.

According to general nantoka her ability to 6A from both 5A and j.C coupled with her fast j.4D makes her scary. j.4D can't be made ambiguous because like bang's j.4B it always hits backwards, but if used low is apparently hard to react to. If you think about the changes she currently has to her normals, she can easily do something like j.B/j.4D as a high/LOW mixup and unless they changed j.4D's attack level, it naturally combos into d.6C, which would mean that you would get a fairly chunky drive combo out of it, could potentially get a very chunky fatal combo out of it.

22C bouncing higher than before means that if you were to spam 22BBBBC you can more than likely follow up because they're air born longer, and if you did a FC rc into 3C 22BBBBC you can more then likely get more B's in because they tech 2 frames later, meaning more time to dash.

They changed it so that 22C has same move proration, but as long as 22B doesn't same move prorate you can still do 3C 22BC 66C 22B 66C 22B 66C as a loop on larger characters, and heck possibly even FC (22BBB 662B 6C 22B) x N

The nerfs noel got are not really that bad when you compare it to the fact she now has decent abare and good air-air/air-ground again.

[NoirMorpheus]

I'm fairly sure whoever was saying Noel is strong just saw those few positives, and doesn't realize that Noel took some pretty major hits as well.

I was reading some of the responses from Noel players who went to the loketest, and this is what I gathered from them.

The changes to her air normals were reported to be almost unnoticeable, except j.a was slightly stronger as an antiair which it is already decent as. Her combo routes in general are just way more limited with no drive 5c jc, nerfed spring raid, changes to the way 22b/c combo, and 5d covering somewhere close to half of the distance it does current in CS.

They did a good job to nerf drive mashing pretty well, but she is still going to struggle with range possibly even more than CS since her drives actually did have fairly big hitboxes while the range on her normals are basically all the same except 5c which doesn't move her forward. 6A being buffed to hit crouching opponents is an amazingly good change, although I have a strong feeling people will overestimate it's value at first because it was so good in CT, before 6C got crazy nerfed, and now that her combo routes and damage are hurting in CS2 this may not end up helping her all that much. I don't see the new gatlings making that huge of a difference in how effective she will be able to run her offense, since getting in and staying in is still going to be a chore with still no real tools particularly useful at it, and especially with a reduced threat of throws due to her not even being able to combo off them midscreen, blocking against Noel is not going to be very scary at all.

j4D is probably the one major buff that stands out as a possible game changer for Noel, but apparently it can't be made ambiguous by hitting through a player to cross up or anything, so it will be fairly straightforward for other characters to learn how to deal with it, from the information so far. This change should actually help her get in on the opponent, so hopefully it turns out usable.

Some other changes that aren't all fully described, including a buff to optic barrel which supposedly makes it slightly better and allows it to be used in a few combos, but really didn't change it's use whole lot. 5B is supposed to hit lower, but someone was testing and it was losing at the tip to jin's 2a and it seems for now like it won't be so hugely improved to deal with most of the other chars better normals from that close-mid range.

I don't know where anyone got the idea that her damage increased in any way from what I read. It seems harder to combo and there will be more situations that meter must be spent to get some decent damage.

So overall, just from the info I've read, it is my opinion that she'll rely a lot more on her normals rather than having to gamble on drives to catch people's moves luckily, which is a very much needed change. The new gatlings and other positive changes to her normal set will definitely make it the more viable choice, but I think she will still have some other major issues with getting in, staying in, and dealing her damage, especially if she ends up still unable to combo meterless from a midscreen throw.

The only real high damage (4k+ level) I saw reported was from corner combos, which she can already easily surpass, she will struggle mostly in midscreen and reaching the opponent.

Some one posted that she did 4.2k Midscreen. I don't know if that's true or not.

And there's been some confusion on whether D5C is jump cancellable or not.

But I know her 5D has more range, it was listed as one of her buffs, but on the downside 5D lost invincibility frames.

I think she'll do fine, especially compared to CS

[Halcyone3]

So overall, just from the info I've read, it is my opinion that she'll rely a lot more on her normals rather than having to gamble on drives to catch people's moves luckily, which is a very much needed change. The new gatlings and other positive changes to her normal set will definitely make it the more viable choice, but I think she will still have some other major issues with getting in, staying in, and dealing her damage, especially if she ends up still unable to combo meterless from a midscreen throw.

agreed, she may not turn super good, but they really are addressing her main issues, which is always nice to hear. As for having trouble to start a combo to begin with, i think that's the point ASW has for her, ive always thought they were headed towards a "very high damage combos that are harder to land" route (which i think was pretty fail when makoto joined, being able to pass noel's damage off very easy hit-confirms) given her dmg off easy moves was atrocious and her damage off ideal set-ups always tended to be pretty high. Can't really determine from just the loketest, but after final product is released and people start playing and finding new stuff, her damage could keep going up.

Though since her abare is better, some loss of damage could be ok.

Also, the throw range specifically mentioned forward throw, we can probably do 4BC->214A, which should be just as good, just a bit of muscle memory adjustment.

[Runis]

Something that might work with forward throw is forward throw into 22C. Supposedly 22C bounces higher, and ever if you can't cancel a forward throw, 22C might be able to reach them into a 66C drive combo.

[GenoWhirl]

☆5C＞6Bが追加

lol guys we can 5C > 6B now

[LunaKage]

☆5C＞6Bが追加

lol guys we can 5C > 6B now

k sd MC ;KMSDD ;S M; ;S DNDCLKdncmlAC N;DNCC;LSLDS N;DNC

Yes. Do you have a source? This one seems too good to be true.

[Mizzet]

Oh wow it's like Christmas came early. Sounds reasonable enough, there's a precedent for such a thing, other characters can combo into things that force crouch state like Makoto's 5c > 6b and Valk's 2c > 6b. If true it'll probably fix her abare as well? Even from stuff like 2b you can go to 5c > 6b and so on.

[LunaKage]

Oh wow it's like Christmas came early. Sounds reasonable enough, there's a precedent for such a thing, other characters can combo into things that force crouch state like Makoto's 5c > 6b and Valk's 2c > 6b. If true it'll probably fix her abare as well? Even from stuff like 2b you can go to 5c > 6b and so on.

As far as I know this is only a new gatling, though I could see CH 5C > 6B comboing, in the current game CH 5C > Rapid > 6B comboes.

Either way we now have a high/low option after 5C on block, 5C > 2C for low and 5C > 6B for an overhead.

[SkyKing]

I welcome these new gatlings. It gives her more threats of big damage is they guess wrong on block. Of course they could always DP out of it, but now it's not so obvious when that will be exactly.

[Ichipoo]

So I hear LokeTest 5 Noel got some sexy new shit? If so, I may actually play CS2 and hang around Dustloop some more again!

[LunaKage]

I welcome these new gatlings. It gives her more threats of big damage is they guess wrong on block. Of course they could always DP out of it, but now it's not so obvious when that will be exactly.

As far as DPs go I already have a plan. 5C > 2C has a 1 frame hole I believe, and 5C > 6B will be a huge gap. So this is gonna be every Ragna's favorite DP spot, but if we know the DP will happen, we can cancel the 5C with a jump and barrier guard. If they DP we can punish accordingly, if they don't we can continue with pressure by using j.B/j.4D.

[bmore303]

I'm happy for all of our new gatlings, I actually have concepts for a decent mixup at this point. Also with J.4d being faster, a crossup I learned from a friend could become fucking insane. Only time will tell.

I'm still saddened by our midscreen losses.

[Konton]

Yessssssssssssssss

:yaaay:

Thank you jesus!

[LunaKage]

Theory Fighter:

It seems like 5C is going to be our go-to move in CS2. Even if it doesn;t get a disjointed hitbox it will be the point where our mix-up starts and/or our pressure resets. If it gets a disjointed hitbox it will be an amazing spacing tool, but lets focus on the pressure aspect.

-CH 5C > 3C > combo

-Normal Hit 5C > 2C small guaranteed damage.

-5C > 2C is a solid frametrap(at least in CS1) that will catch opponent's crouching, on crouching it combos into 3C.

-5C > 6B/2C: High/Low mixup. If the opponent blocks high all day because they know Normal hit 2C doesn't have good payoff, we can risk going right into 5C > 3C, or we can take our normal hit 2C and run back in for pressure, taking advantage of 2C's hitstun. We can also 2C > Rapid > 66A for a combo as well, this is all assuming 2C is hitting a standing opponent. If our opponent is mashing jump to escape our overhead attempt, this is where the 5C > 2C frame trap comes in, if they were standing when they blocked 5C, then when 2C connects they will still be standing, but if they were crouching when they blocked 5C, the 2C will hit them crouching for a combo into 3C.

-5C > Jump cancel will allow us to skip the 5C > 2C/6B mixup in favor of yet another mix up, 5C > Jump > j.B/j.4D. We can also jump barrier if we think our opponent is gonna get DP happy.

I may have been rambling a bit, but there is still some solid speculation in there if you can decipher it, suddenly I can't wait for this game.

[wighti]

Just the fact that we've got an additional gatling move is pretty fantastic in it's own right. Not like it can hurt.

[GenoWhirl]

As for the source, it's GENERARU NANTOKAH like always

[SkyKing]

Theory Fighter:

It seems like 5C is going to be our go-to move in CS2. Even if it doesn;t get a disjointed hitbox it will be the point where our mix-up starts and/or our pressure resets. If it gets a disjointed hitbox it will be an amazing spacing tool, but lets focus on the pressure aspect.

-CH 5C > 3C > combo

-Normal Hit 5C > 2C small guaranteed damage.

-5C > 2C is a solid frametrap(at least in CS1) that will catch opponent's crouching, on crouching it combos into 3C.

-5C > 6B/2C: High/Low mixup. If the opponent blocks high all day because they know Normal hit 2C doesn't have good payoff, we can risk going right into 5C > 3C, or we can take our normal hit 2C and run back in for pressure, taking advantage of 2C's hitstun. We can also 2C > Rapid > 66A for a combo as well, this is all assuming 2C is hitting a standing opponent. If our opponent is mashing jump to escape our overhead attempt, this is where the 5C > 2C frame trap comes in, if they were standing when they blocked 5C, then when 2C connects they will still be standing, but if they were crouching when they blocked 5C, the 2C will hit them crouching for a combo into 3C.

-5C > Jump cancel will allow us to skip the 5C > 2C/6B mixup in favor of yet another mix up, 5C > Jump > j.B/j.4D. We can also jump barrier if we think our opponent is gonna get DP happy.

I may have been rambling a bit, but there is still some solid speculation in there if you can decipher it, suddenly I can't wait for this game.

Something else I've been thinking about:

If we end up keeping throw whiff cancels, then that could add another dimension in our mix-up game if the recovery allows for it. With 5C > 6B gatling we can actually use B+C as a sort of frame trap against DP characters if you use the gatling and they've reacted to it with DP. The extra animation might warrant a reaction if we keep them honest with threatening with 5C > 6B. Also, if they do try to jump out of the pressure to not deal with it, 5C jc chasing is entirely viable now. Just instant air dash throw if they like to jump back, and use 2C as a frame trap if they become indecisive in their defensive choice.

Edited November 21, 2010 by SkyKing

[dragontamer]

I'm under the impression that 5C -> 2C is not a frame-trap at all, but is solid under normal block. Under instant-blocking, it is a frame trap... but under normal block it is something IMO better.

Frame traps can be punished by Reversal Supers and Mashing Hakumen Counters. 5C -> 2C under normal block MUST be blocked correctly. Its solid, your opponent cannot do anything. It will still beat people who jump (can't hold up and down at the same time), but it won't counter-hit people who mash 4AAAAA or 4BC BC BC BC.

[SkyKing]

Here's to hoping they don't changes Noel's CA. They did Tsubaki's, so they may do so to other characters as well.

[Chiizu]

Heck, we can even jump cancel 5C on block into j.4D crossup to fuck with the opponent's mind even further. I can't help but salivate about the options 5C will give us. 5C>6B is just delicious.

[Danny Schme]

Alright Luna, I may have done a small dance to this new finding. Won't lie.